Just what's the story on 147-gr 9mms

[Cheapo]

I'm tired of reading various articles by the "jello junkies" and the "expansion freaks" (sorry, I can't remember what the JJs call their opposition) where they throw veiled insults at each other regarding the move to 9mm 147-gr JHPs following the FBI's tactical blunders in the Miami firefight.

Yeah, Fackler & Co. recommended that round for 9mm and a lot of agencies went to it. It Chuck Taylor one of the high priests of opinion aligned against Fackler??

Yeah, a lot of those agencies have since "left" that round. Most, if I have the info correct, left it for the .40 S&W. Going to another gun AND ammo does not necessarily prove dissatisfaction...I'd prefer to see internal memoranda citing dissatisfaction with the performance.

So, do we have any data on how well the 147-gr 9mm performs as a fight-stopper, other than the Martin & Sanow secret, proprietary, sanitized, never peer-reviewed and possibly fabricated "one shot stop" stats?

Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[don't shoot it's me]

we carry it in the los angeles sheriff's department and it has proved a good fight stopper....and yes, contrary to popular belief, it does expand quite nicely and give good penetration.....sorry all you velocity freaks.....

 

[Jhp147]

147's

"....do we have any data..etc. etc."

Yes, but only if you call collections of anecdotes data. Otherwise, we just have many 1 unit samples. I'm not sure that qualifies as data. And I am sure that the two sides won't ever agree on this either. That being said, I don't worry about it. I tend to agree with Urey Patrick, generally:
www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm
Bullets are just something you use to make holes in people to make them quit hurting you or someone else that matters. Where the holes are is so important that what makes them is almost not worth discussing. MY OPINION..... and it's okay if you have one that is different....you might be right.

 

[bad_dad_brad]

I prefer the +P 124 but I sure as heck would not want to be hit by a 147. They penetrate like crazy. One of the misnomers is that they do not expand. They do not, not in a dry medium. They are designed to expand in a fluid, you know, like your belly. So if some one is shooting them into magazines or books, they will not expand very well. They will penetrate like ball.

The bottom line is that modern 9mm bullets are good man stoppers, not the best, but pretty darned good, especially when you consider that the recoil is mild.

 

[Bob Locke]

If memory serves, the primary purpose for which the 147-gr cartridge was developed was subsonic applications (suppressed) was it not?

 

[dsk]

Yes. The military developed subsonic 147 FMJ 9mm because supersonic ammo defeated the purpose of having a silencer. Then the light bulb went on in somebody's head after the FBI Miami fiasco that a heavy 9mm round that will penetrate a tank might be just the thing for the FBI. After all, the whole reason why that gunfight went so badly was exclusively the fault of a single 9mm 115gr Silvertip which stopped 1" short of its goal. The other hundreds of rounds fired had no bearing at all on that fight, so I'm told.

I often use 147gr Hydra-Shoks in my Glock while hiking, as I feel an attacking cougar is going to require more penetration than an attacking human will. Other than that I use 115gr Silvertips for home defense use, simply because I DON'T want excessive penetration there.

 

[blades67]

I don't get my advise from the likes of Garbage&Advertising because they haven't printed an unbiased word in over 15 years.

I believe that the better round will always be the heaviest bullet (within reason) going as fast as it can be safely driven.

 

[George Helser]

Cheapo,

Do the calculation of Muzzle Energy for your 147 gr 9x19 bullet. It is FAR less powerful than a 115 gr bullet. Do you like more power or less power?

A 147 gr bullet has a much lower velocity compared to a lighter bullet. Which do you think will expand more?

Look again at velocity. Do you think a subsonic bullet will shock more or less than a supersonic bullet?

Which is better: Low power, low expanding, subsonic ammo OR higher power, higher expanding supersonic ammo in 9x19?

Please think about the BIG LOSS in performance with 147 gr ammo if you plan to carry it. I hope you never have to need it!

Regards,
George
In sunny Arizona
(happy with 115 gr low flash ammo at over 1300 fps)

 

[WESHOOT2]

IF "VELOCITY DOESN"T MATTER" WHY IS THERE A .300 KONG?

"...heaviest bullet..." for 9x19 is the 115g JHP (I prefer the conventional R-P bullet) at a minimum muzzle exit speed of 1300fps.

But that's just me.

 

[Chris Orndorff]

The International Wound Ballistics Association publishes the Wound Ballistics Review, and the Winter '91 issue has an article by the late Eugene Wolberg re 147 gr 9mm performance (in bodies; not gelatin).

To obtain a copy (if it's still in print), contact the IWBA at www.iwba.com

Mr. Helser, you might be interested (or not) in reading the book by Duncan MacPherson entitled "Bullet Penetration: Modeling the Dynamics and the Incapacitation Resulting from Wound Trauma". It might clear up some of your misconceptions about velocity, energy and wounding mechanisms. Which is not to say that your chosen load is necessarily a poor choice.

 

[don't shoot it's me]

George, we all love ya over at the cult, but all that 147 grain bashing is just not justified...bottom line, in most of our department shootings in the LASD the round has performed quite well and expanded nicely.....numbers on paper are nice but real world stats are where it's at. Would I like the option of carryingy a 1350 fps round? Sure. But the one I have to carry works pretty well.

 

[Cheapo]

Now I remember the latest salvo!

Ayoob's latest Am.Handgunner after-action report threw some barbs at Fackler. But the round-by-round report indicates that the round may have worked as fast as a non-CNS shot can be expected to, regardless of expansion or lack thereof.

Even the Mud&Snowjob (Martin & Sanow) OSS stats show that despite a roughly linear correlation between muzzle energy (F-Lbs) and OSS percentage, individual loads deviate wildly from the general trend line. IOW, some individual loads of lesser energy will outperform others of more energy--but not usually.

I take the M&S as a hint of reality, not gospel. But what if they're right on a few of their claimed data?

 

[BrokenArrow]

Some love em, some hate em.

LASD via their web site (www.lasd.org) :

Sir, the information provided by Mr. Ayoob regarding "poor performance" of the 147gr 9MM is incorrect. This Department uses the Winchester SXT and the performance of this bullet is outstanding.

Bruce Harris
Training Bureau
Weapons Training
Biscailuz Center Range
323 267 2737

During the ammunition trials for the U.S. Military M11 pistol (Sig P228, not suppressed smgs) conducted by Navy Weapons Center Crane Indiana, the 9mm 147gr JHP (Federal 9MS, not HS) was selected as the issue load for the M11, beating a variety of other 9mm JHP loads, including both standard pressure and +P pressure 115 gr and 124 gr JHP's.

The largest _independently verified_ (S&M's stuff is not) study of bullet penetration and expansion characteristics in living human tissue has shown the 9mm 147 gr JHP to offer acceptable performance in law enforcement lethal force confrontations. A senior criminalist with the San Diego P.D., Mr. Eugene J. Wolberg, has analyzed their 9 mm 147 gr JHP performance in 10% ordnance gelatin and compared the laboratory results with the actual terminal effects produced in human tissue in nearly 150 officer involved shootings with the San Diego Police Department. As of May of 2000, the majority of their bullets have penetrated 13 to 15 inches and expanded between 0.60 to 0.62 inches in both human tissue and 10% ordnance gelatin.
This appears to be ideal performance from a 9mm. San Diego PD switched to the 9mm 147 gr JHP when their lighter weight, higher velocity 9mm 115 gr JHP bullets had several failures to penetrate deeply enough to create damage to vital organs in the torso and cause rapid incapacitation.

Other large California agencies with experience using the 9mm 147 gr JHP, such as Los Angeles PD (switched from 115s BTW), Los Angeles SO, San Jose PD, Santa Clara PD, Santa Clara SO, San Mateo SO, and San Francisco PD have had similar results. These and other California agencies successfully using the 9mm 147 gr JHP have thousands of officers with hundreds of officer involved shootings.

CHP seems to think the 180/40 is working better than the 125 357 Magnum ever did for them too BTW:

Summary of Remarks by Lieutenant Edward Fincel, Coordinator-Tactical Training Unit California Highway Patrol, to the Wound Ballistic Seminar FBI Academy, Quantico, Virginia 1/19-22/93: "...in eight shootings with the .40 caliber where the subjects were struck in the torso, all resulted in fatalities. In 13 others where extremities were struck, the subjects gave up. Fincel speculated that this may have been due to the large amount of tissue damage usually caused by this round." The summary goes on to say, "Fincel indicated that the CHP historically used the 125 gain .357 and had experienced difficulty physically restraining some subjects after shooting them with this round. Fincel indicated that this round gave tremendous expansion but shallow penetration. These observations prompted the CHP's selection of the .40 caliber 180 grain hollow point as their service load."

 

[Turk]

don't shoot it's me

Your post?

we carry it in the los angeles sheriff's department and it has proved a good fight stopper....and yes, contrary to popular belief, it does expand quite nicely and give good penetration
__________________________________________________

What is good penetration? (distance)

Turk

 

[don't shoot it's me]

i guess far enough in to maker him fall down....i don't have any statistics, only that our range personal are happy with it and told us it does the job...good enough for me since we are fairly progressive in the weapons department...a friend of mine took a guy out with one shot to the lung and he went down like a 5 dollar crack whore...

 

[Cheapo]

Thanks for the much more reliable data, folks!

Dontcha just love this forum?

 

[don't shoot it's me]

I find a friend still walking around and the other guy in the ground pretty reliable data....

 

[gryphon]

Well, in my opinion, if we just used the 45ACP, there would be no worries, then again, we might have the debate of hardball vs wadcutter vs hollowpoint.....

I think the sentiment that has been expressed here and in other forums is appropriate here, "Do your part of placing the bullet where it can do the most damage and the bullet will do it's part"

Even if you had to put 2 or 3 9mm rounds into someones chest, it's better than not having anything at all!

Just my 2 bits...

 

[George Helser]

Chris,
I am traveling and don’t have time to check the data you referenced right now. Sounds like it will take a while to get anyway. Can you summarize the data for us?

I can accept the strategy that penetration is good on the battlefield cause you can wound several people standing in a row or penetrate obstructions and hit something on the other side. Then it takes 4 troops to carry off each living, wounded troop. But, this is not my strategy for CCW or home defense. I need low risk to innocents outside my house or beyond my target and I prefer max destruction to incapacitate my target. I don’t want 4
lawyers coming after me for wounding an innocent!

I have read magazine articles where PDs dropped the 147gr 9x19 round for being very ineffective! I am surprised to know any PD is issuing this low power, low stopping ammo. Guess they will risk officer injuries to reduce the chance of killing a bad guy??? I don't understand it!

I would like an explanation from you. Comparing full power 115 & 147 gr 9x19 ammo, how can the 147 gr ammo be better when it is LESS powerful, has LESS velocity and has LESS potential for expansion. PLEASE, TELL ME IF THIS STATEMENT IS WRONG. If so, give me the numbers.

Regards,
George
In sunny Arizona

P.S. “don't shoot it's me” It sounds like you know me but I don’t think I have ever seen your “handle” on the forums. Do you own a CB radio? If you have been here under another “handle” why have you changed it? Are you embarrassed about your past statements? You have my name and where I live. I stand by my posts. I am here to learn and to share my experience. I am not here to BS people. I would hate to see someone make a bad decision which could risk their life based on BS.

 

[BrokenArrow]

"I would like an explanation from you. Comparing full power 115 & 147 gr 9x19 ammo, how can the 147 gr ammo be better when it is LESS powerful, has LESS velocity and has LESS potential for expansion. PLEASE, TELL ME IF THIS STATEMENT IS WRONG."

Yes.

What did you miss from the above? Plenty of large PDs are using the 147 9mm and very happy with it. Some are not. Just like Texas DPS was not happy w the 45, thought the 357 Mag/SIG was/is better, but CHP thinks the 180/40 is better than the 357 Mag. So the 180/40 must be better than the 45 too? Round n round we go...

What you do with the velocity/power you have is more important than how much you have?

Here are "the numbers":

bare gel, after cloth:

Rem 115 +P+ 10.8/.63, 10.9/.62
Rem 124 GS +P 12.3/.63, 12.7/.60
Rem 147 GS 13.8/.62, 15.1/.61

Win 115 +P+ 10/.53(f), 10/.62
Win 147 SXT 13.7/.63, 15.3/.62

Comparing loads from Federal and Speer is pretty much the same deal.

As far as expansion, the 147 9s do the job as well as the lighter/faster loads, and do penetrate better under a wider variety of conditions, with less blast, flash, and wear n tear on weapon/shooter.

If you believe more energy will make a difference with the same size hole that isn't as deep (plenty do), then go for it. Some see the 124s (std and +P) as more of the same, a compromise, as optimum, or the best yet. Take your pick.