Judge reloads

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stinkeypete

New member
I had a Contender in .45/.410 and aside from novelty uses and shooting barn vermin I found that compared to a shotgun, fast sighting on moving targets past about 5 yards was the biggest problem.

Tungsten is 19.3 g/cm3 while lead is 11.3.. 70 % denser. My bad.
 
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Scorch

New member
Now your Judge is a do-all Bear Stopping Turkey Shooting pistol you can duck hunt with.
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Cool! A bear-stopping test! Can we go to Alaska, and can I watch? Sorry, but I'll stand back a ways, the screaming upsets me.;)

Seriously, though, even tungsten shot won't redeem the 2-1/2" 410 IMO. 1/2 oz of 000 buck (3 or 4 pellets) at 700 fps (according to chrono tests on the Judge) is not exactly awe-inspiring. I'm not saying it's nothing, it's just not very much. But, hey! You do your thing, I'll do my thing.
 
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stinkeypete

New member
I am sure Apex will make you a couple of boxes of anything you wish under their Custom Loads program. Give them a call.
 
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Staff
I've never understood the marketing hype and the people buying in to it that shooting a .410 from a pistol length .45caliber barrel is somehow a powerful round.

I've got a .45/.410 Contender, with a 10" barrel. Its a very useful specialty pistol, and its "long" (for a handgun) barrel with no cylinder gap gets the most velocity possible from that barrel length.

But its not a powerful round for self defense.

What kind of velocity does one get from a 6" or shorter revolver shooting .410s??

Much is made of the multiple hits with buckshot, but is it really that good from a .410? From a revolver, with its federally mandated rifled barrel? How likely is it that pattern spread will put some (most??) those hits outside of vital areas?

What works well with a 12ga mass doesn't work the quite the same with a .410 and only 1/4 (or less) as much mass...

Not saying it won't work, not saying it doesn't work, just don't get why its touted as a great thing when the reality is its adequate, not trememdous...
 
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Rob228

New member
Not saying it won't work, not saying it doesn't work, just don't get why its touted as a great thing when the reality is its adequate, not trememdous...
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You can't always apply logic and reason to marketing :)

I bought a Governor after my dog tried to play with a water moccasin, carried it loaded with #4 shot in the woods once. Realized that a 9mm hollow point is useful against a lot more than just snakes. Haven't carried the Governor since.
 
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Drm50

New member
Still the 410 revolvers are being billed as awesome power in small package. One of single shot breakdown type would make somewhat useful firearm. Before 1935 Gun Laws several companies made them. Garden Guns, at garden ranges a 410 works good.
 
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I have a box of Winchester 3" .410 slugs, which says the MV is 1800fps.
I'm certain this speed is taken from the full length shotgun barrel (at least 18 and probably more like 24") and the slug is 1/4oz.

That puts the slug at approx 110gr, and typically slugs are fired at higher speed than shot, including buckshot. So what does one get from the 6" (or less) barrel of a revolver shooting the same round? 1400? 1200? less??? I don't know, don't have one for testing but if you do, please let us know what speeds your gun gives you.

a 110gr bullet at 1200fps is nothing to sneeze at, but its not the same as a .45 Colt bullet twice as heavy even if slower.
 
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stinkeypete

New member
There is no science or reasoning to it. It's marketing and sales, targeting people that really just plain don't know.

This is why my standard response now is to promote Apex Tungsten .410 loads. They're clearly superior, fellas are turkey hunting with subgauge loads with that stuff because Tungsten is 60% denser than lead and .. geometry and aerodynamics and momentum.

Then they waffle at $10 a shell. "Yes, but having spent all that money to shoot shot shells, you're life isn't worth an extra $60???"

And then a whole house of cards falls down, because really... if you're going to carry around all that weight, what's wrong with .45 in a properly proportioned revolver? Nothing, it's just plain better in every regards.
 
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for that matter, I don't see what's wrong with the .45 in the awkwardly proportioned Judge/Governator...

Tungsten is wonderful stuff, but expensive beyond what I consider reasonable for my shooting.

And, for what its worth, $60 (for six shots) only buys potential, NOT results. If I don't put the shot where it needs to go, (or if I think I am but the gun doesn't put it there) then its not saving my life. And, at that high cost, actual practice is, for me, prohibitively expensive.

.45 ammo is cheaper, (and I handload) and no one can convince me that is isn't going to work well enough against human targets.
 
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Scorch

New member
So what does one get from the 6" (or less) barrel of a revolver shooting the same round? 1400? 1200? less???
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Out of a Judge, chronograph tests I read say velocity is just under 700 fps. Pretty poor.
 
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Jim Watson

New member
The Army prototyped a pistol for bad shots.
On a 1911 receiver but a blowback slide with large buffer spring.
Ammo was .45 ACP Shot but loaded with #4 tungsten, I forget how many.
 
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Electrod47

New member
stinkeypete said:
Tungsten. The data is all in, the field testing done, tungsten shot is absolutely what you must carry for ammo in your Judge.

It’s 20 percent denser than lead, but that doesn’t mean it’s 20 percent better. It’s far better than that because volume is proportional to the radius of the shot CUBED, while the aerodynamics are proportional to the radius squared.

The stuff is crazy hard, too.

Tungsten 1 ounce pheasant loads go from no.4 shot lead to no. 9 shot tungsten. The number of pellets go from 84 (lead no. 4) to 362 (tungsten, no. 9) with superior penetration at 50 yards. It’s Just fisiks. It’s 4 times as deadly.

People are using their .410s as deadly Turkey guns with tungsten ammo and swear by it. No joke.

Number 2 tungsten shot? One ounce of shot is 54 pellets acting like buckshot at 50 yards.

“But Pete, it’s just a lil’ .45… I can’t shoot an ounce load!”

Okay, shoot a quarter ounce of Tungsten. That’s “only” 12 pellets of buckshot equivalence.

Anyone not using Tungsten ammo just plain doesn’t care about ammunition performance.

Now your Judge is a do-all Bear Stopping Turkey Shooting pistol you can duck hunt with. You just have to get out your credit card.
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Tungsten 410 rounds are 25 bucks plus for 5 rounds!
 
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bladesmith 1

New member
I just test fired for group 2 1/2" 410 with three .355 RBs. At ten yards two of them were almost touching and the third about a inch below the other two. I'm going by memory but I think they weighed 280 grains and 11/16 of an ounce is 300 grains. They just barely stuck up above the top of the shell so hot glue was used to keep them in.
 
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kymasabe

New member
.410 for self defense? Isn't that why sweet lord Jesus invented 9mm?
Judge at the trap range? Just seems like alot of time and money wasted to make yourself look silly at the range, attempting to make a gun do something it wasn't designed to do.
 
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They were 395 RBs. They weighed 276grs , just a little shy of the 300grs/ 11/16oz.
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Are you saying you got 11/16 oz. shot into a 2.5" .410 case? :confused:


.410 for self defense? Isn't that why sweet lord Jesus invented 9mm?
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He didn't invent the 9mm. Nor did "St. JM Browning"...it was Georg Luger, and, it wasn't his first choice!! :rolleyes:
 
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bladesmith 1

New member
The bigger than shot lead ball means less air space in a load, so yes, I got 11/16oz in a 2 1/2" 410 shell.
The shot question wasn't at the trap range, but the skeet range where chokes aren't really needed.
I have a 45 Kimber on my hip, the Judge sits on the bucket seat next to me. Who would fool with a 9MM when 45s are available ?
The correctness of your logic is directly proportional to the diameter of your bore. You shoot what you want, I'll shoot what I want.
 
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