Jogger glad she had her Glock
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Double Naught Spy
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Interesting. The article you cite says they asked her about the length of time of her run - just a couple of bubbas trying to make time with a pretty jogger. She was creeped out by the situation, but didn't say that they asked her creepy questions.
Ted Bundy used good looks, charm, guile, and deceit to get women off their guard before taking advantage of them. Women were attracted to him and often readily came to his aid. The problem was that many didn't feel threatened until long after it was too late.
Nice analysis Snyper.
I understand and agree that premature brandishing is a bad idea. I'm all in favor of responsible behavior by folks carrying.
But when a bad situation presents itself,we are not going to have the luxury of time (or a forum discussion) sort out "Well,maybe they were selling coupon books" Maybe a lot of things.
In a bad situation,the last second,or half second,you had to act is decisive,and there is no second chance.
To lift her shirt and find her grip,might take 2 seconds,or 1.Or 1/2 if she practices a lot.
How long does it take to be rushed and hit with a haymaker or overwhelmed?
There are times when that primal tingle needs to be answered with action.Not hesitancy.
But when a bad situation presents itself,we are not going to have the luxury of time (or a forum discussion) sort out "Well,maybe they were selling coupon books" Maybe a lot of things.
In a bad situation,the last second,or half second,you had to act is decisive,and there is no second chance.
To lift her shirt and find her grip,might take 2 seconds,or 1.Or 1/2 if she practices a lot.
How long does it take to be rushed and hit with a haymaker or overwhelmed?
There are times when that primal tingle needs to be answered with action.Not hesitancy.
johnwilliamson062
Moderator
With the caveat of us having incomplete information, given the information presented, including quotes from her social media account posts:
The guys never got out of the car, showed a weapon, or made any verbal threats. If they are in the vehicle they are probably well out of reach or she can easily retreat to make distance. The ten yard rule doesn't assume a car door and tossing a child out of the way. Why did she stop to chat in the first place? Not many traffic lights in the country and you generally have three open directions even when stopped at a light. How is that an IMMINENT threat to her safety? Since when does being creepy/obnoxious/inappropriate warrant the threat of deadly force in response?
For all we know they stopped and were quietly talking to themselves about what kind of idiot goes running alone in the middle of nowhere at night before approaching. Then decided to approach her and ask some questions to evaluate whether she was OK, or planned to contact police or watch out for her. Not an irrational response to a young woman running by herself at night in the middle of nowhere. Even from a shirtless redneck who could benefit from cutting calories.
If they started to dismount from the vehicle, told her to get in, or she notices a third person encircling her, or something similar, then sure, you have argument for an imminent threat. Two country boys in their truck with a small child trying to make conversation? ONE OF THEM SHIRTLESS!!! My god he wasn't wearing a shirt. One was also SKINNY!!! Skinny Rednecks are the worst.
Inappropriate, I'll agree with that, but nowhere close to an imminent threat of kidnapping. Imminent threat of kidnapping is when you are going well over 100 MPH and the cars are still following you. When you have made a complete circle around the stalls in the market and the four guys you've noticed are still clearly trying to keep you encircled. It wasn't appropriate for her to shoot because THERE WAS NO IMMINENT THREAT, not because only brandishing the firearm was enough to deter them. There was paranoia and over reaction.
Talk to any attractive woman about how often she gets hassled while running. See if she thinks some guys creepily asking about her running stats is abnormal. My wife, who is currently training for a marathon, gets hassled all the time. She also had to change gas stations because some creepy guy kept showing up and wanting to pump her gas. How did he always know when she stopped for gas? Does he sit at a window in an adjacent house and wait for attractive women to show up to the station? She doesn't brandish her firearm in response. What a joke.
When you grip a firearm you escalate the situation to red+ for everyone that has a clue what they are doing. Everyone is a hairs width away from a shoot-out. Literally a sneeze or hiccup or stumble away from a gunfight. Many organizations/instructors teach this response as valid and in many locations police are permitted to respond with deadly force at this point. There are a lot of places where civilians can also respond with deadly force legally. As in, it is quite possible the two men in the truck could have drawn and fired legally. The idea that someone needs to pull their firearm or point at someone before they can be a deadly force response is warranted is generally false(a lot of different locations in and out of the US represented on this board).
You can assume no one else is carrying a firearm or will react to such a threat, but that would be extremely foolish. If you don't understand this, I really don't think you should be carrying.
Yeah, police officers do it quite often. They often draw their weapon when approaching. Plenty of history of that not working out so well.
You can let it be known you are armed and prepared without gripping the firearm.
Question:"How long are you running?"
Response:" I was going to run ten miles, but this holster is chafing a bit and I think I'll call it quits after 5"*uses weak hand to lift cover garment enough to expose pistol* Still legally brandishing in most locations, but not nearly as likely to raise anyone with their head on straight to the the brink of a gunfight.
Or how about get one of the pepper sprays made for runners that velcro around your hand. Sends a pretty clear message without threatening deadly force or raising everyone's blood pressure.
I was in a situation where someone gripped their pistol to show what a hard butt they were thinking no one else was armed. When everyone in my party started to back up and put distance between each other their face showed they clearly thought we were retreating in fear. Not the case. We were all armed and on the brink of pulling. Basically changing our mental state to a mindset of the passive reaction being to draw and fire the pistol and the active reaction to restrain that action instead of the opposite. Feeling every muscle our hand, changing our posture to one that facilitated drawing, angling towards cover, etc. It was the dumbest situation I have ever been in and I have been in some dumb ones. Had it been a female, I personally would have responded the same.
The girl is a dumb... for putting herself in that situation and her response.
5 year olds are notoriously bad partners in crime. Their propensity to turn states witness in exchange for an orange soda or single piece of hard candy is well known.
The guys never got out of the car, showed a weapon, or made any verbal threats. If they are in the vehicle they are probably well out of reach or she can easily retreat to make distance. The ten yard rule doesn't assume a car door and tossing a child out of the way. Why did she stop to chat in the first place? Not many traffic lights in the country and you generally have three open directions even when stopped at a light. How is that an IMMINENT threat to her safety? Since when does being creepy/obnoxious/inappropriate warrant the threat of deadly force in response?
For all we know they stopped and were quietly talking to themselves about what kind of idiot goes running alone in the middle of nowhere at night before approaching. Then decided to approach her and ask some questions to evaluate whether she was OK, or planned to contact police or watch out for her. Not an irrational response to a young woman running by herself at night in the middle of nowhere. Even from a shirtless redneck who could benefit from cutting calories.
If they started to dismount from the vehicle, told her to get in, or she notices a third person encircling her, or something similar, then sure, you have argument for an imminent threat. Two country boys in their truck with a small child trying to make conversation? ONE OF THEM SHIRTLESS!!! My god he wasn't wearing a shirt. One was also SKINNY!!! Skinny Rednecks are the worst.
Inappropriate, I'll agree with that, but nowhere close to an imminent threat of kidnapping. Imminent threat of kidnapping is when you are going well over 100 MPH and the cars are still following you. When you have made a complete circle around the stalls in the market and the four guys you've noticed are still clearly trying to keep you encircled. It wasn't appropriate for her to shoot because THERE WAS NO IMMINENT THREAT, not because only brandishing the firearm was enough to deter them. There was paranoia and over reaction.
Talk to any attractive woman about how often she gets hassled while running. See if she thinks some guys creepily asking about her running stats is abnormal. My wife, who is currently training for a marathon, gets hassled all the time. She also had to change gas stations because some creepy guy kept showing up and wanting to pump her gas. How did he always know when she stopped for gas? Does he sit at a window in an adjacent house and wait for attractive women to show up to the station? She doesn't brandish her firearm in response. What a joke.
When you grip a firearm you escalate the situation to red+ for everyone that has a clue what they are doing. Everyone is a hairs width away from a shoot-out. Literally a sneeze or hiccup or stumble away from a gunfight. Many organizations/instructors teach this response as valid and in many locations police are permitted to respond with deadly force at this point. There are a lot of places where civilians can also respond with deadly force legally. As in, it is quite possible the two men in the truck could have drawn and fired legally. The idea that someone needs to pull their firearm or point at someone before they can be a deadly force response is warranted is generally false(a lot of different locations in and out of the US represented on this board).
You can assume no one else is carrying a firearm or will react to such a threat, but that would be extremely foolish. If you don't understand this, I really don't think you should be carrying.
Yeah, police officers do it quite often. They often draw their weapon when approaching. Plenty of history of that not working out so well.
You can let it be known you are armed and prepared without gripping the firearm.
Question:"How long are you running?"
Response:" I was going to run ten miles, but this holster is chafing a bit and I think I'll call it quits after 5"*uses weak hand to lift cover garment enough to expose pistol* Still legally brandishing in most locations, but not nearly as likely to raise anyone with their head on straight to the the brink of a gunfight.
Or how about get one of the pepper sprays made for runners that velcro around your hand. Sends a pretty clear message without threatening deadly force or raising everyone's blood pressure.
I was in a situation where someone gripped their pistol to show what a hard butt they were thinking no one else was armed. When everyone in my party started to back up and put distance between each other their face showed they clearly thought we were retreating in fear. Not the case. We were all armed and on the brink of pulling. Basically changing our mental state to a mindset of the passive reaction being to draw and fire the pistol and the active reaction to restrain that action instead of the opposite. Feeling every muscle our hand, changing our posture to one that facilitated drawing, angling towards cover, etc. It was the dumbest situation I have ever been in and I have been in some dumb ones. Had it been a female, I personally would have responded the same.
The girl is a dumb... for putting herself in that situation and her response.
5 year olds are notoriously bad partners in crime. Their propensity to turn states witness in exchange for an orange soda or single piece of hard candy is well known.
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John I think you have portrayed the encounter to support your position. When I read her account it is not the same as yours. It reminds me of some of the conversations I've heard while watching political coverage lately. Two people hear the same speech; one hears a completely positive message the other nothing but negative.
Your story of the knothead showing his handgun to you and your friends makes the point that just because you saw a weapon you did not have to act on it. I have never been a young, attractive woman
, but as a younger man I logged many miles running at night in the middle of nowhere. Someone rolling by asking if everything is OK is very different than someone pulling in front of you and stopping to ask dumb questions as she indicated. It could be that they just acted without thinking. They will be more careful in the future. BTW what she did, and your imaginary woman who "accidentally" shows her weapon is exactly the same if you are the guys in the truck...
Your story of the knothead showing his handgun to you and your friends makes the point that just because you saw a weapon you did not have to act on it. I have never been a young, attractive woman
, but as a younger man I logged many miles running at night in the middle of nowhere. Someone rolling by asking if everything is OK is very different than someone pulling in front of you and stopping to ask dumb questions as she indicated. It could be that they just acted without thinking. They will be more careful in the future. BTW what she did, and your imaginary woman who "accidentally" shows her weapon is exactly the same if you are the guys in the truck...johnwilliamson062
Moderator
I feel strongly it is not. One is very clearly indicating you are on the verge of pulling and firing. The other merely indicates you are in possession of a firearm without clearly expressing any immediate intent to use it.
I was recently in a situation where some guys were causing me some concern. It was a hot day and I needed to use my off hand to pull my shirt tail up and wipe the sweat off the portion of my face below my eyes. For some reason they were suddenly very polite. I don't know of any training schools or organizations that train to shoot if someone has a visible gun in a holster and is not touching it(in normal situations). You just shoot anyone who open carries on sight? There is a huge difference between being in possession of a firearm and gripping it.
That is the only part of her writing that portrays any sort of fact that I can construe as an actual threat. The rest is just her interpreting normal things, like a redneck driving around in his truck shirtless, as an immediate threat to her safety. Considering she describes it as a country road, it was probably two lane with a shoulder she was running on. If going the opposite direction they probably were by her before they had time to react, stopped, discussed whether they should go back, then turned around. If going the same direction and they pass her then pull onto the shoulder, which would be normal, that would also be in her running path. A smart person simply yells 'I'm fine, out for a late run' waits a second for the truck to speed away and if it doesn't turns around and runs the other direction(assuming they weren't smart enough to not be there in the first place). If they turn the truck around and follow, you have more to be worried about.
Having grown up in something of a Midwestern farm town, I can tell you if you are traveling the road on foot at night there, most any guy passing will stop to check on you. It's the sort of thing where, if on Sunday morning at church you mention your brother had car trouble and walked two miles home Friday night and one of the people says "oh I passed somebody on that road coming home I didn't know it was him," everyone would look at them with their jaw dropped('city folks moving out here and putting up 200 motion sensor lights around their entire property that light up six square miles every time a skunk takes a dump'). I was actually witness to this social reaction once in regard to a city person who moved out to the country passing one of their new neighbors sons who had car trouble. Everyone knows you don't want to approach a farmhouse at night unannounced. By the time you get within shouting range the dogs will have woken everyone up and at least one member of the family will have a shotgun loaded and pointed in your direction. So someone passing is one of your best shots at help. Also your best chance of getting hit since the shoulder is all of four inches. The only time a smart person travels far on thin country lanes in the middle of the night is if they are in trouble or up to no good. If up to no good, you get off the road into the ditch long before a car gets close enough to see you.
The point isn't whether one chooses to act or not. Many police officers have chosen not to shoot after someone has pulled a gun and pointed it at someone. It doesn't mean the person didn't give them clear justification to do so. When you grip a gun you effectively start a ?cold? gunfight.
Further, where was her attempt to retreat? In a public roadway, not in her home or even on private property. Or was she planning on dragging the guys down the roads back into her home? I love it when I hear that one.
In my case the guy was an idiot. He went from a situation where we probably would have agreed to almost whatever he wanted, because none of his concerns had anything to do with our concerns, to one where he ended up beating a hasty retreat.
Last post. Had enough fun on this one.