It appears I need a small base sizing die.
- Thread starter Jay24bal
- Start date
After sizing.
To make it easier for anyone to see what may be wrong, here is my process for my AR fodder:
1. Ultrasonic clean and let them dry.
2. Lube - Hornady One Shot aerosol
3. Full Length Size - RCBS FL Die
4. Ultrasonic clean, again, and let them dry.
5. Measure
6. Trim
7. Chamfer and debur
8. Swage any primer pockets with crimps
9. Prime
10. Load charges (IMR 4064)
11. Seat Bullet (55 gr Hornady FMJ BT with cannelure) - RCBS Seater Die
12. Run them all through a Lee FCD
I think a small base die will solve the problem and this upper may very well have a tight chamber.
As I mentioned earlier, I have made 3,460 rounds with this exact process, in this exact equipment for my other ARs. While I did not have the other ones with me to verify that these exact rounds would work in them, I find it hard to believe that every single round from this 35 round test batch (including 5 rounds from my bin of already made standard load rounds) working up to my standard load would would not be done correctly.
I will be using the small base die I picked up to size 30 cases and re-do the test batch to work up to my standard load. I will update everyone when I have done so (will probably be two weeks before I get back to the range).
Thanks.
I would have agreed with you in the past, but I tried this when I got home from the range with a couple cases from my test batch after I pulled the rounds apart. The bolt closed and locked, only to be opened by engaging the latch on the charging handle.
I do not mean to be rude and negate every suggestion that comes along, but I am truly baffled, hence why I started the thread. If it had not been for the 110 rounds of factory ammo that worked flawlessly, I would think something is wrong with the gun.
There are three reasons that the bolt won't close on a round (that's the proper cartridge for the gun):
1. The shoulder is left too long by the sizing die. (Commom)
2. The base/web is expanded beyond the ability of the sizing die to re-form it. (Uncommon in rounds previously fired in same gun)
3. The shoulder is very slightly crushed/distorted by crimping while the bullet is still being seated. (Not uncommom if/when shooter crimps/seats in same motion w/o a cannelure)
A. Check #1 using a Hornady headspace gauge on cases that do fit, and comparing that measure to re-sized cases.
B. Check #2 on properly re-sized cases (per 'A' above) by chambering them empty and closing the bolt.
If they pass test 'A' but fail 'B' then you've got a base problem.
C. If a loaded round now fails to chamber using cases that pass A & B above, you've distorted the shoulder during crimp.
(Solution: no crimp needed)
1. The shoulder is left too long by the sizing die. (Commom)
2. The base/web is expanded beyond the ability of the sizing die to re-form it. (Uncommon in rounds previously fired in same gun)
3. The shoulder is very slightly crushed/distorted by crimping while the bullet is still being seated. (Not uncommom if/when shooter crimps/seats in same motion w/o a cannelure)
A. Check #1 using a Hornady headspace gauge on cases that do fit, and comparing that measure to re-sized cases.
B. Check #2 on properly re-sized cases (per 'A' above) by chambering them empty and closing the bolt.
If they pass test 'A' but fail 'B' then you've got a base problem.
C. If a loaded round now fails to chamber using cases that pass A & B above, you've distorted the shoulder during crimp.
(Solution: no crimp needed)
Last edited:
Sure Shot Mc Gee
New member
As read perhaps its more appropriate to use this tool prior to the purchase of a SB sizing die.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/23...basic-set-with-6-inserts?cm_vc=ProductFinding
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/23...basic-set-with-6-inserts?cm_vc=ProductFinding
He fired new ammo in his rifle, he knows new ammo will chamber and fire flawlessly, He could have saved a few new, over the counter, factory loads for reference when measuring cases, he could have saved a few of his once fired cases for reference when comparing.
He insist his problem will be solved by a small base die, I suggest if he is going to reload with a press, die and shell holder he should develop skill and knowledge.
Again, I have one head space measurement, my head space measurement measures the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face. I transfer that measurement to the case and die. I do not have a head space gage for the case, I make gages that measure the length of the case from the shoulder to the head of the case, I have case length gages, L.E. Wilson has been making case length gages for 60+ years, during that time reloadrs have referred to the case gage as a drop-in gage, just drop the case into the gage and????? then what. My Wilson case gages measure the length of the case from the shoulder to the head of the case in thousandths.
F. Guffey
There you are, everything you ever wanted to know about reloading, well, not so fast and surly not that simple. I am not too good and or not too lazy to unbolt a press from a bench to check how it operates. I an not too lazy, I do not have an inflated ego as being someone that is too good to crawl under the bench to check the operation of a press. I do have strain gages, I also have deviation gages, and I have dial indicators. If a case gets the best of one of my presses I know it.
If the die does not make it to the shell holder the case is holding it off. A reloader can turn the die down an additional 1/2 turn or .0355" to increase the presses ability of overcome the cases resistance to sizing. after that then can adjust the die down an additional 1/4 turn to .053", I have screwed the die in additional 2 turns, that is close to .142" and have a gap of .014" between the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder. It does not take me long to look at hot horse shoes and it does not take me long to determine a gap between the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder "THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH MY METHOSD AND OR TECHNIQUES".
F. Guffey
I suspect a small base die will be the answer because I also did exactly what you mention in this first part. The brass that was FL sized through my die measured .002 wider than factory new at the base of the case (and yes, I assure you yet again that the die is touching the shell holder more than the bare minimum).
For the second time, I can assure you there is no gap between the die and the shell holder. And my press does not cam over, so there is no spring back or any other resistance to bounce the shell holder off of the die.
I also assure you the press is in proper working order. I have disassembled it numerous times to clean/lube/inspect it and have a thorough understanding of how it functions. It is a rather simple, single stage without a lot of moving parts...
As the OP stated this is for his third AR. And I explained that one of my ARs has a tight chamber. I do not keep my loads separated for multiple guns and pick up any .223 range brass I can find. To ensure reliable feeding in all of my ARs I resize all of the brass to the tightest chamber and that gun requires the use of a small base die.
Neither has the OP, he started with new ammo, he did not save any for comparison.
The OP did not size his once fired cases, he went to his 3,400 pound supply of cases that have no pedigree, we have no clue what chamber the cases were fired in, we have no clue how many times the cases were fired and we do not know how heavy the loads were when the cases were fired.
I have no less than 4,000 223 cases, sorted, new unfired, un-fired/primed. once fired with dented primers, once fired/sized and primed etc.. Compare? Minimum length, go-gage length, no go-gage length? And stripper clips, a wild guestimate would be 80.
If a case gets the best of one of my presses, I demote the one press and promote another press. There are bad habits, a friend/reloader/builder was having trouble returning cases back to minimum length, he asked for help, I screwed the die in an additional 2 turns, .142" then attempted to size one of his cases, with the ram at the top, there was a gap between the shell holder and bottom of the die of .014".
F. Guffey
http://300AacBrass.com/ -
zxcvbob. That is not what I have been thinking, I do not sell cases, but if I did there is no way I could prepare the new proud owners of the cases what to expect. The OP sells cases he can not size to fit the new chamber of his last build. Let us pretend he sells a few thousands cases to an owner of a 223 semi-auto and the proud new owner can not size the cases to chamber for any number of reasons including the lack of skill when operating the press, adjusting the die to the shell holder and no ability to measure a case for length and diameter. (Meaning) When chambering a round is the only method they have for deterring if a case will chamber.
As I have said, my favorite case is a case that has been fired in a trashy old chamber. I have purchased cases that have been fired in trashy old chambers from firing ranges. I sort the cases while I purchase them for length and diameter. Cases that have been fired in go-gage length chambers are common. Cases fired in no go-gage length chambers are not. When sizing a case for a chamber I know the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face. It is not possible to size a case that has been fired in a go-gage length chamber to a chamber that is no go-gage length. I am the fan of controlling the length of the case from the shoulder of the case to the head of the case, to accomplish that, the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head must be 'too long'.
I know, there is case head space, and there is chamber head space, and! there is die head space for all, except for me, I have an exemption, I have one head space, that is the one from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face.
then there is trouble shooting problems, I form cases for shrot chambers, I form cases for minimum length chambers and go-gage length chambers and I form cases for no go-gage length chambers, after that I form cases for field reject length chambers and ever length chamber in-between.
If I need a small base die I can determine the need before I purchase because I can turn a full length sizing die into a small base die without grinding the die and or shell holder.
F. Guffey
I enjoy reading your posts, Guffey; I have for years on other forums as well as this one. But it's always a challenge because your writing style is hard to follow. (I think that's one of the reason I enjoy them.)
I'm still working on this one...
BTW, I think someone here mentioned grinding or milling the bottom off a sizing die. You should be able to do the same thing with less risk by thinning the *top* of a shellholder, and if you screw it up you haven't ruined an expensive die. The shellholder will be easier to keep flat, and the metal is probably softer.
I'm still working on this one...
BTW, I think someone here mentioned grinding or milling the bottom off a sizing die. You should be able to do the same thing with less risk by thinning the *top* of a shellholder, and if you screw it up you haven't ruined an expensive die. The shellholder will be easier to keep flat, and the metal is probably softer.
I understood everything you said, it is not necessary to lower the deck height of the shell holder, it is not necessary to shorten the distance from the opening of the die to the shoulder of the die. It is possible to determine if it is necessary before grinding one or the other. It is possible to determine the amount of grinding/metal removal from one or the other.
I have an in-line, angle and butt grinder, maintaining a flat surface on the shell holder and or bottom of a die is just a matter of chucking up the piece to be ground. The same tool is used to make head space gages. Problem with head space gages, the length of the gage is fixed, I have no interest to see if a bolt will close on a gage, I want to know by how much.
There are those that just do not get it. If I chamber a round that will not allow a bolt to close I can determine 'by how much' in thousandths.
I am not the first, (a very few)old smiths used one gage, they used a gage they knew was too long and would not allow the bolt to close, they did not let a small detail like a gage that was too long slow them down or run them into the curb.
F. Guffey