chris in va
New member
That's what I understood as well, middle of the road charge. I'm telling you, some sort of flakes were flying out the chamber every shot and my barrel was heavily smeared. Never seen that before with other powders.
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Issue with Titegroup
- Thread starter chris in va
- Start date
For a powder that claims to be clean-burning (and a hot powder should be) and is designed to be pretty fast burning, that is odd. If it were a flake powder, then I would say the flakes were unburned powder, but with a spherical, they would have to be spheres heated and flattened to be unburned powder. Do you have photos? With lubricated lead bullets, a few grains that get greasy can fail to ignite.
TiteGroup is a tiny flake powder. Clays is a larger fluffy flake powder.
I like TiteGroup better than Clays as far as load range. My only beef with TiteGroup is that it is very dense and the color of case soot, making it hard to spot a double-charge. I did worry a bit about the vaporized lead deposits because I feared the smoke would lower my IQ.
I like TiteGroup better than Clays as far as load range. My only beef with TiteGroup is that it is very dense and the color of case soot, making it hard to spot a double-charge. I did worry a bit about the vaporized lead deposits because I feared the smoke would lower my IQ.
Jim Watson
New member
Is it possibly flattened spheres?
Yes. Some WW Ball-Hodgdon Spherical powders are rolled flat to adjust the burn rate, but they are round in the vat. W231/HP38 is a common example.
I was kind of underwhelmed by Titegroup. Bullseye is more consistent in light loads although it is definitely not Internet Clean.
Shotgun Slim
New member
You can call it a middling load all you like but Hodgdon,with their actual pressure testing, call a 230 gr lead with 4.8 gr of Titegroup a MAX load. If you think a 225 gr bullet turns into a medium load then I'll stand back when you load "heavy".
You can call it a middling load all you like but Hodgdon,with their actual pressure testing,
call a 230 gr lead with
4.8 gr of Titegroup a MAX load. If you think a 225 gr bullet turns into a medium load
then I'll stand back when you load "heavy".
Look what Hodgdon lists for 230/4.8gr/TiteGroup:
OAL: 1.2"
Generic 230gr LRN
WT: 230gr
Now look at Lyman, which lists the OP's bullet: Lym 452374/225gr
and that bullet's OAL of 1.272"
Lyman shows that combo maxing out at TiteGroup/5.1gr
Take a look at Post#18 again.
Given both QL prediction & LABRADAR actual measurements,
Lyman is more correct for that bullet, loaded that way, as mid power.
One of the problems when looking at generic internet data if not careful.
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Bullseye
I have phased out Bullseye in favor of W231/HP-38 because I feel that W231 is just a touch slower and so, just a touch more versatile. That's just my opinion and load style though.
I wouldn't hesitate using Bullseye should the need arise. It's fantastic stuff. Energetic. Loves to ignite. Consistent. It's still in production for a reason. If W231 disappeared for some reason, moving back to Bullseye wouldn't bring me any sadness at all.
Over half a century into the reloading game, I still use Bullseye.
I have phased out Bullseye in favor of W231/HP-38 because I feel that W231 is just a touch slower and so, just a touch more versatile. That's just my opinion and load style though.
I wouldn't hesitate using Bullseye should the need arise. It's fantastic stuff. Energetic. Loves to ignite. Consistent. It's still in production for a reason. If W231 disappeared for some reason, moving back to Bullseye wouldn't bring me any sadness at all.
chris in va
New member
Lyman shows that combo maxing out at TiteGroup/5.1gr
Take a look at Post#18 again.
Given both QL prediction & LABRADAR actual measurements,
Lyman is more correct for that bullet, loaded that way, as mid power.
I knew I wasn't losing my mind.
You are right about the speed. In a high expansion rate, modest sectional density cartridge like 45 Auto, you can get some surprisingly potent loads out of 231/HP38
No doubt. With 45 ACP/W231, I have routinely driven both 230gn plated FP's and RN's (two very different animals due to seating depth) to well over 800 f/s without any issues. (full size 1911's) I learned early on that in 45 ACP, it's easy to think of fast propellants like W231 to behave how intermediate speed propellants behave in cartridges like 38/357.
Unclenick: in this context, can you expand a bit on "sectional density?"
Thanks.
Sure. Sectional density (Sρ) in physics is the mass of the bullet divided by its cross-sectional area. Ballistics uses a shortcut convention in dividing pounds mass by the square of diameter to escape making the area calculation, so it simplifies some calculations, like BC, where the ratios of two Sρs is all that matters. You can divide the ballistic Sρ by ¼π to get the actual physical sectional density if you need it, but in most ballistics calculations, like the ones below, it's about ratios of Sρs, so it is only a matter of being consistent with which one you use.
So here's the value: As you know, the force pushing a bullet down a barrel may be found by dividing the gas pressure behind it by the bullet's cross-sectional area. Thus (not counting rifling's reduction of the area, which is small), a 0.451" diameter bullet at 15,000 psi experiences 2396 lbs of force trying to accelerate it, while a 0.357 diameter bullet at that same pressure experiences 1501 lbs of force on its base. So if the two bullets have the same weight, that pressure will accelerate the 0.451" bullet 2396/1501=1.596 times faster. Or, if the 0.357" bullet is 1.596 times lighter, the same force will accelerate them both at the same rate. So, if both bullets are, say 200 grains (0.02857 lbs), their Sρs by ballistic convention are:
.357200 = 0.2242
.451200 = 0.1405
When you divide the former by the latter, you get:
0.2242/0.1405 = 1.596
That's the same multiplier we got before, but it let us bypass calculating the area of the bullet cross-section and multiplying it by the force, so the ratio of the Sρs was a shortcut to that result. You get a number showing how much higher pressure will have to be to accelerate the 0.357" bullet of that same weight.
To get the same acceleration from the same pressure at both bullet diameters, you can lighten the 0.357" bullet by 200/1.596 = 125.3 grains. Thus, at the same pressure, a 125.3-grain 0.357" bullet will have the same acceleration as the 200-grain 0.451" bullet does.
Another way to look at it is a bullet's Sρ is proportional to how much pressure it needs for a given rate of acceleration. This means, with a lower Sρ you don't need as much pressure to impart a given rate of acceleration.
That last fact brings up an additional problem. If you try to use a slow powder with a low Sρ bullet, it can accelerate so easily that it scoots down the bore faster than the powder can make gas to keep up with it. This means, the lower the Sρ, the faster the powder burn rate has to be to reach the desired peak pressure. And this is why, with a low Sρ bullet, you often can get better performance with a fast powder than you might expect.
So here's the value: As you know, the force pushing a bullet down a barrel may be found by dividing the gas pressure behind it by the bullet's cross-sectional area. Thus (not counting rifling's reduction of the area, which is small), a 0.451" diameter bullet at 15,000 psi experiences 2396 lbs of force trying to accelerate it, while a 0.357 diameter bullet at that same pressure experiences 1501 lbs of force on its base. So if the two bullets have the same weight, that pressure will accelerate the 0.451" bullet 2396/1501=1.596 times faster. Or, if the 0.357" bullet is 1.596 times lighter, the same force will accelerate them both at the same rate. So, if both bullets are, say 200 grains (0.02857 lbs), their Sρs by ballistic convention are:
.357200 = 0.2242
.451200 = 0.1405
When you divide the former by the latter, you get:
0.2242/0.1405 = 1.596
That's the same multiplier we got before, but it let us bypass calculating the area of the bullet cross-section and multiplying it by the force, so the ratio of the Sρs was a shortcut to that result. You get a number showing how much higher pressure will have to be to accelerate the 0.357" bullet of that same weight.
To get the same acceleration from the same pressure at both bullet diameters, you can lighten the 0.357" bullet by 200/1.596 = 125.3 grains. Thus, at the same pressure, a 125.3-grain 0.357" bullet will have the same acceleration as the 200-grain 0.451" bullet does.
Another way to look at it is a bullet's Sρ is proportional to how much pressure it needs for a given rate of acceleration. This means, with a lower Sρ you don't need as much pressure to impart a given rate of acceleration.
That last fact brings up an additional problem. If you try to use a slow powder with a low Sρ bullet, it can accelerate so easily that it scoots down the bore faster than the powder can make gas to keep up with it. This means, the lower the Sρ, the faster the powder burn rate has to be to reach the desired peak pressure. And this is why, with a low Sρ bullet, you often can get better performance with a fast powder than you might expect.
I’ve been using Titegroup for around 10 years now with 9mm and .45ACP jacketed bullets.
It’s always appeared to run dirty for me but cleanliness isn’t my primary or even secondary consideration.
I started casting and powder coating my own lead bullets recently and tried out my 9mm 125gr this past Saturday. The load was 3.4gr or Titegroup and accuracy was exceptionally good.
Barrel was clean as a whistle.
1043fps Avg., ES 9.38, SD 3.6, PF 127
I will be testing my .45ACP 230gr later this week.
It’s always appeared to run dirty for me but cleanliness isn’t my primary or even secondary consideration.
I started casting and powder coating my own lead bullets recently and tried out my 9mm 125gr this past Saturday. The load was 3.4gr or Titegroup and accuracy was exceptionally good.
Barrel was clean as a whistle.
1043fps Avg., ES 9.38, SD 3.6, PF 127
I will be testing my .45ACP 230gr later this week.