Israeli Carry

[Mello2u]

BGutzman
Israeli Carry
So my question is do you think there is a reasonable way to train someone through this lack of confidence and if so how would you approach it?

Challenge someone who carries using the Israeli Carry (a semi-auto carried with no round in the chamber, hammer down and the magazine full) to a man-on-man shooting competition.

Set up three 8" round steel knock-down targets for each of you to shoot, three targets for each shooter. Place two at 5 yards (farthest out to the side), two at 7 yards (more towards the center) and two at 10 yards (right next to each other in the center). With the two shooters standing next to each other facing the targets, on a random signal you both draw, and shoot the 5 and 7 yard targets as quickly as possible, reload then shoot the 10 yard target. The one who knocks down all three targets first wins. Try the best 2 out of 3.

The above is patterned off of the shoot-off that occurs at the end of the Gunsite handgun classes. The distances are probably different. I never measured them, and it has been a long time since I was there.

Those shooters using the the Israeli Carry will be at a real time disadvantage on getting off that first shot. If you two are fairly equal in shooting skill you should win every time. You might find that you are reloading by the time he is shooting his first target.

This exercise should clearly illustrate that in a defensive encounter you are out of time. You have to fight right now. Do not waste time.

 

[falnovice]

You might find that you are reloading by the time he is shooting his first target.

That depends entirely on how well trained the other shooter is. I think the results will be much closer since this test is two handed shooting. Remember, someone who is well practiced is only adding half a second or less to the first shot. The entire test could backfire just with the smoothness of the reload between the two.

If I were to make a test to demostrate the benefits of condition one over Israeli carry I would do the following:
One hand only.
Targets at 3, 5, 7 yards.
I'd point shoot 3 yards at the hip and the bring the gun up for five and seven.
Now that is a test I would think you might clear before the Israeli Carry managed to rack the slide off his belt and get onto the first target.

 

[Lost Sheep]

Poast 151. What statement?

At what point in a situation where you would feel the need to draw your gun would you actually chamber a round.

Followed up with

If you had that much (a) advance warning, (b) concealment and (3) discretionary options, are what other options would have been better? (I am thinking about some sort of disengagement.)

This is a false argument. You think it makes sense, and if the OP's friends haven't practiced their Israeli draw extensively your point is probably valid, but simply making the statement as you have doesn't prove your point. It has been documented that IDF (Israeli Defense Force) operatives who carry with an empty chamber can draw, rack the slide, and fire faster than most people who carry a 1911 in Condition 1 can draw, snap off the thumb safety, and fire.

If the OP really feels he must intervene, IMHO offering a "shoot out" such as suggested a post or two above yours seems to me more likely to make the point. However, I don't think it's anyone's place to tell someone else how to carry their gun. I assume these are adults, so they are responsible for themselves. I would just comment (once, and once only) that "I hope you practice for if you ever need to use your pistol" and leave it at that.

What is false? No statement was made. (Though I did leave a question mark off the first line, the construction of the sentence leaves no doubt that it is a question, not a statement.) No argument put forth.

If there is documentation of the speed advantage of starting with an empty chamber, can you share the source with the rest of us, please?

If anyone thinks a "shootout" will provide a definitive answer, let me point out that speed of presentation and first shot is not the only criteria that matters to the O.P.'s friends.

I would like to point out that I have no dog in this fight and am primarily interested in finding the answer to this question: What different criteria figure in the differing answers, and why?

Lost Sheep

 

[jhenry]

This thing just keeps popping up.

Speed is not the only criteria although it is a very important one. With the obvious need to be able to use a self defense firearm with a single hand in may instances it makes even less sense to tote around a gun that you have purposefully rendered inoperative, or at least not in a state of immediate readiness. I do realize there are ways to rack a slide with one hand, but those optimal conditions may not exist, and it still takes extra time.

I am perfectly fine with anyone who wants to carry a semi auto with an empty chamber, that is their concern, and in my opinion, their mistake. I just don't get it, or the need to try and justify it. Folks toss around "Israeli" like some sort of magic incantation. We know why they adopted it, it was for inexperienced persons who were likely to shoot themselves or others by accident. Just because some of their forces were constrained by this policy, and therefore practiced to do the best they could with it, does not make the thing the best deal since sliced bread. Carry the thing any way you want to.

 

[BGutzman]

Mello 2U
Challenge someone who carries using the Israeli Carry (a semi-auto carried with no round in the chamber, hammer down and the magazine full) to a man-on-man shooting competition.

Set up three 8" round steel knock-down targets for each of you to shoot, three targets for each shooter. Place two at 5 yards (farthest out to the side), two at 7 yards (more towards the center) and two at 10 yards (right next to each other in the center). With the two shooters standing next to each other facing the targets, on a random signal you both draw, and shoot the 5 and 7 yard targets as quickly as possible, reload then shoot the 10 yard target. The one who knocks down all three targets first wins. Try the best 2 out of 3.

The above is patterned off of the shoot-off that occurs at the end of the Gunsite handgun classes. The distances are probably different. I never measured them, and it has been a long time since I was there.

Those shooters using the the Israeli Carry will be at a real time disadvantage on getting off that first shot. If you two are fairly equal in shooting skill you should win every time. You might find that you are reloading by the time he is shooting his first target.

This exercise should clearly illustrate that in a defensive encounter you are out of time. You have to fight right now. Do not waste time.

Great idea! I commonly shoot 15 feet to 50 yards, but usually the longer distances as I find close shooting to be of no really challenge in making a nice tight group..

I absolutely will invite my friends to try this with me... It could be they practice drawing and chambering at home but personally I doubt it but we shall see... I can make this something positive and fun...

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I know it's asking a lot from some, but that's why it's good to learn and practice one handed (weak and strong hand) manipulation drills.

Having trained in such - and as mentioned before, taking a class in such with one armed in cast and then LFI Stressfire with the cast, and shooting one handed drills a bit - I see NO reason to limit myself by deliberately increased the risk of such. Since I don't see chambered carry as a major risk but I do see losing a hand in fight as more of a risk - the issue is resolved for me.

As far as the speed contests - for trained shooters who can draw - the times are irrelevant - it is the one handed injury, immobilizing risk, needing to deploy the flashlight, hold kid in an emergency, etc.

Or carry a heavy trigger pull gun - Hey, kids, human factors analysis shows that you can ND a DA/SA on DA under stress too!! Rate might be a touch less but it can happen. Better carry UNLOADED!

 

[Frank Ettin]

...Or carry a heavy trigger pull gun - Hey, kids, human factors analysis shows that you can ND a DA/SA on DA under stress too!! Rate might be a touch less but it can happen. Better carry UNLOADED!

On the subject of safety, a while ago I received the following (quoted in part) in an email from another Gunsite alumnus (emphasis added):

Negligent discharges that result in injury are the result of 1. IGNORANCE, and/or 2. COMPLACENCY and/or 3. HABIT that is inappropriate to changed conditions.

Proper training with the universal rules can only address #1 and #3.

...The great deficiency of much NRA civilian training ... is that muzzle and trigger discipline are not rigorously enforced except when on the range when the line is hot and sometimes not even then. Change the conditions to carrying a loaded gun at all times and adverse results are predictable.

EXAMPLE #1: Trap and skeet shooters often rest muzzles on their toes and point them at each other. They have almost no accidents on the range because guns are unloaded until just before they shoot. ...CHANGE CONDITIONS to a duck blind with loaded guns and the results are predictable....

One thing that Jeff Cooper said ... made a big impression on me. It is seldom repeated. To address complacency he said that every morning when he picks up his gun he says to himself "somewhere today someone is going to have an accident with a gun - not me, not today".

At Gunsite, training is on a hot range. For those who carry a gun in public, everyday life is a "hot range." It's a good idea to get used to that and learn to consistently conduct oneself accordingly.

 

[44 AMP]

I have to wonder, being a bit slow in my old age, why is this discussion even in General handguns to begin with. Seems to me it is a semi-auto only issue.

Of course, if we include carrying single action revolvers of the classic Colt pattern, then it could be in General Handguns. We always carry them with an empty chamber under the hammer. But we don't call it Israeli carry, we call it sensible carry.

 

[Tom Servo]

We always carry them with an empty chamber under the hammer.

What about the newer Ruger single-actions?

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

44 AMP - I suppose it could be General as one might discuss a heavier pull revolver as an alternative to a semi with a light trigger for those who fear the ND in the dupa.

Or I might propose a musket that takes a deliberate time to load.

I once saw on CourtTV a guy who dropped the old pattern Ruger and shot himself. Sued Ruger and lost but Ruger paid him something just to shut up.

 

[Budda]

Modern 5 shot snubbie solves all the problems....ready to go, no safety or other bs. Done deal.

 

[Stockhausen]

^^^ excuse my ignorance (still learning about guns) but doesn't the same go for modern pistols like glock and xd?

 

[carguychris]

Stockhausen & Budda,

Yes, most revolvers and contemporary striker-fired automatics lack external safety levers and will fire immediately upon pulling the trigger if they're loaded, but this is immaterial to the basic discussion here.

"Israeli Carry" refers to carrying an automatic pistol with a loaded magazine and no round in the chamber as a safety measure; the slide must be racked to fire the gun, which theoretically prevents or at least hampers unauthorized use if the gun is dropped or grabbed from the carrier's holster. (There really isn't an equivalent mode of carry with a revolver, unless you count carrying it with the cylinder empty and also carrying a charged speedloader.)

Some people like this mode of carry regardless of how many other safety devices the gun has. I think it's foolish, but this thread seems to have progressed past the point of productive discussion.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...this thread seems to have progressed past the point of productive discussion.

I agree.