Israeli Carry

[BGutzman]

I know of at least three people that Israeli carry despite my having explained in depth why it is a poor choice to do so.... The constant reply I get from my friends is that they feel its safer and I reply with if you feel your guns unsafe or cant be trusted then get a new gun... I even went so far as to find two articles from reputable sources on the issue...


I personally believe it is a total lack of confidence in themselves and not a lack of trust of safeties.

So my question is do you think there is a reasonable way to train someone through this lack of confidence and if so how would you approach it? I dont want to insult them but I sure dont want to see them end up on the short end of a situation due to a lack of confidence....

 

[Crankylove]

While any person carrying a firearms for protection should do so in the way they feel most comfortable............I have never understood the reasoning behind carrying a firearm that is not ready to use.

I carry a 1911 in "condition 1", so thatif I need it, it is ready. Carrying it with an empty chamber just adds complication in the event it is ever needed.

As far as trying to train them in another method........maybe have them unload their pistols, and carry them cocked and locked, but unloaded, (or whatever the equivalent for their weapon is) around the house for a couple days to show them the gun isnt gonna just go off on its own.

 

[pelo801]

that's a tough one. i don't, or let me rephrase, won't carry any single action, cocked and locked. for the second reason you stated. i don't have enough confidence in my ability primarily, and a very distant secondary, the gun. so i prefer a DA/SA or a striker fired type. i think some people can't be trained through this, some may. and carrying their gun for a few days (around the house of course) empty, cocked and locked may help, like previously mentioned. but if someone can't be trained out of this, IMHO foolish practice, they should really consider another weapon for themselves.

 

[Shotgun693]

Not knowing anymore details than I do, I'd think that a revolver might be the better gun for someone who doesn't trust their Auto.

 

[BGutzman]

great point shotgun! Im not trying to make anyone feel bad about thier confidence level but I really do see it as being a really not so great way to carry.

I may or may not be able to get anyone of them to try anything that gets suggested but I am willing to make the effort to at least try..

 

[Crow Hunter]

Challenge them to a "shoot off".

Set up 2 identical targets and both of you draw and fire 5 rounds into your target. See which gets done first. Most likely, you will fire all of your rounds before they get of their 1st round.

Then ask them how that would have turned out if instead of a competition, it had been "for real".

Then ask them why they feel unsafe with a chambered round. Get them to explain to you in their words why they feel unsafe and which they feel more uncomfortable with, a gun that "might go off" or one that can't when they need it to.

Lastly recommend they go for professional training. Maybe you offer to take the class with them as a buddy weekend.

Some people never get comfortable with it. I have two friends that are exactly the same way and no amount of cajoling, practice or demonstrations will sway them.

 

[JimPage]

Ignorance is bliss. Have you told them why it's called Israeli carry? That might help a little.

But like Larry says, "You can't fix stupid."

 

[Lost Sheep]

It's a personal decision

It is a decision each of us has to make.

But I wonder what their reply to this question is:

At what point in a situation where you would feel the need to draw your gun would you actually chamber a round.

Followed up with

If you had that much (a) advance warning, (b) concealment and (3) discretionary options, are what other options would have been better? (I am thinking about some sort of disengagement.)

I don't know the statistics, but I opine that (1) most encounters that give you time to chamber a round also give you opportunities to escape the encounter. (Even where the duty to retreat is not required, it is usually a good tactic for civilians.) (2) Drawing a gun prematurely (to chamber a round) creates a risk of a charge of brandishing at best and, worse, assault with a deadly weapon or escalating a bad situation. and (3) Drawing and chambering giving advance warning to potential adversaries.

I imagine that your friends have already made peace with #3, but doubt they have given #1 and #2 enough thought.

I would be interested in their thoughts on given scenarios.

Lost Sheep

p.s.
For what it's worth, this video was a bit of an eye-opener for me just now
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wj9UMUChV-I

2.4 seconds vs 2.1 second. Is 1/3 second worth the peace of mind? Personal decision. Of course, drawing while fending off a knife or club with the weak hand is a lot less practical, but anyone with a semi-auto should be able to rack one-handed against their belt anyway.

p.p.s.
The "Israeli Carry" is sometimes called "Condition Three". (Hammer down, chamber empty). If I were to carry with an empty chamber, though, I probably would carry "Condition Four", Hammer back with an empty chamber. Makes racking the slide that much easier.

 

[Lost Sheep]

OK, Why?

Ignorance is bliss. Have you told them why it's called Israeli carry? That might help a little.

But like Larry says, "You can't fix stupid."

Why is it called "Israeli carry"?

I had heard that it was just because that was what the Israeli Defense Force required of their troops, but the only speculation was that it (1) cut down on the number of accidental discharges, (2) was easier on the ammunition (fewer cycles of feeding/chambering) or (3) easier to administer, whatever that means.

You've got me curious now.

Lost Sheep

 

[Dragline45]

Good way to get yourself killed IMHO. Pulling a gun out brings any situation to a whole new level, you better be able to use that thing when you pull it out because chances are they are not waiting for you to rack the slide and chamber a round. It's complete ignorance in my opinion.

 

[motorhead0922]

I shot 50 rounds at sporting clays Saturday with my O/U, then decided to do it again with my pump. The very first pair that went up with my pump, I hit the first clay, swung over at the second, pulled the trigger and... nothing. I forgot to pump. I new perfectly well I had to pump, but I had just fired a second shell 25 times without having to.

Under stress, we will do only what we have done many times before.

Whatever condition we choose, we have to commit 100% to it. Me, I carry only in condition 2, no safety. I won't own a handgun where I can't Grab Gun, Pull Trigger, and Go Bang.

If your friend wants to carry in condition 3, then he better Grab Gun, Sweep Safety, Rack Slide, Pull Trigger, and Go Bang a bazillion times.

 

[Lost Sheep]

This article seems to give a fair treatment to the question

This article ends with the line:

"The Thinking Gunfighter looks at his own situation and tries to identify what maximizes his advantages and minimizes his disadvantages and makes an informed decision. "

http://thinkinggunfighter.blogspot.com/2010/09/myths-of-israeli-method-of-carry-or-why.html

Lost Sheep

 

[B. Lahey]

If you were to train hard at the various goofy ways of chambering a round without using your other hand (hooking the rear sight on belts and boots, telekinesis, foul language, whatever it is they do...), you would probably be at less risk of being left with an unloaded chamber at the critical moment. Of course rigorous practice of those screwball stunts seems more dangerous to me than carrying a chambered handgun in the first place, but what do I know?

For me, no thanks. I'll go with the conventional wisdom as I'm not constrained by military policy aimed at keeping 18 year old conscripts from shooting themselves while playing with sidearms.

 

[wun_8_seven]

Let fools be fools and carry on

 

[iamdb]

I find some of these comments amusing. I personally carry unchambered because I have 2 small children. They are always climbing on me and climbing on furniture to get to places they shouldn't. If you think there is a major difference in speed between "Israeli Carry" and condition 1 or 2, you are mistaken. Go run some IDPA and look at the time difference between them. Negligible, maybe a second tops for the new guys. Less than that with any gun proficiency.

Ignorance is bliss. Have you told them why it's called Israeli carry? But like Larry says, "You can't fix stupid."

Mall ninjas will be mall ninjas

 

[btmj]

The first month I carried concealed, I did it with an empty chamber (Glock 19). Now keep in mind I have been shooting glocks for 20 years before I got a CCW permit, and I was very familiar with this weapon, and very comfortable with it. It just bothered me to have a loaded chamber... It bothered me for about 4 weeks, and then I started to get more used to the idea. Now I have been carrying for several years, and looking back it seems rather silly. But at the time it did not seem silly.

Funny thing... I practiced racking the slide while drawing, and I got pretty damn fast. My wife timed me timed me at 0.9 sec drawing from a IWB holster at 4 oclock, racking a snap cap into the chamber, bringing the front sight onto a target (10 ft), and pulling the trigger.

But what really convinced me was the thought of not having my left hand available to me... for any number of imaginable reasons: trying to keep a door open, or hold it shut, or fending off an attacker, or trying to push a bystander out of the way, or holding on to the railing of some steps, or catching myself while falling, or .... you get the idea.

 

[Crow Hunter]

I find some of these comments amusing. I personally carry unchambered because I have 2 small children. They are always climbing on me and climbing on furniture to get to places they shouldn't. If you think there is a major difference in speed between "Israeli Carry" and condition 1 or 2, you are mistaken. Go run some IDPA and look at the time difference between them. Negligible, maybe a second tops for the new guys. Less than that with any gun proficiency.

How would a child climbing around on you cause a gun to go off? Do you carry a gun without anything covering the trigger guard?

What are you going to do if you have to move one or both of these small children out of harms way while drawing your weapon?

How many times have you seen these same competitors get a click instead of a bang when they fumbled a charge because there hands were trembling with fear, slick with blood or sweat? How many of them were drawing while fending off an attack with a contact weapon? How many of them fouled the charge because something or someone was restricting their range of motion and they didn't fully retract the slide or mistakenly rode the slide into battery?

You can't control your children well enough to prevent them from setting off your concealed firearm by climbing all over you, but you feel that during a life and death situation with screaming and cussing, fear and rage flowing like water around you that you will be able to control these children while also drawing and then making a weapon ready?

 

[Frank Ettin]

...If you think there is a major difference in speed between "Israeli Carry" and condition 1 or 2, you are mistaken. Go run some IDPA and look at the time difference between them...

It's not so much a matter of speed as the very real possibility that in an emergency you won't have both hands available. Note that according to the 2009 NYPD Firearm Discharge Report, 38% of officers reporting their shooting technique used in a violent encounter used their sidearm one-handed.

...look at the time difference between them. Negligible, maybe a second tops for the new guys. Less than that with any gun proficiency....

In a violent encounter that could take from two seconds to five seconds, over all, one second, or even a half second, is a lot of time.

 

[mrvco]

It's easy to come up with plenty of scenarios where having to rack the slide could be deadly (or not), but you can also come up with lots of scenarios where your CCW weapon or spare ammo may be inadequate (or not) or where you should be wearing a vest (or not) or whatever the scenario... If they're comfortable with it based on their assessment of the potential threats, then to each his own.

 

[Oysterboy]

This is why I like DAO semi-auto with the trigger being the only safety. I feel better having a round in the pipe and the holster covering the trigger.