Is there any truth to this?.........

[Mike Irwin]

"Do people really not know their gun is loaded (rhetorical, I know the answer)."

Then why all the advocacy for the press check, even by such luminaries as Mas Ayoob and Col. Cooper? Heaven fofend if they don't know their firearm is or isn't loaded.

"And does anybody really think this do-hickey enhances their gun? "

Duh. I've made that point pretty clearly, but I'll make it again. YES.

"More stuff = more potential problems."

Please provide examples of loaded-chamber indicators causing failures of the gun to fire, or causing other problems. There have been some pretty complex loaded-chamber indicator systems put on handguns over the past 100 years. We're talking a device that is, due to function, and relationship to the rest of the gun, that is significantly less complex than the extractor.

 

[Zundfolge]

I really think this is a case of people demonizing the device because they are angry about the law.

It's like people who are angry about seatbelt laws and therefore have to come up with reasons why seatbelts are bad, when their problem is realy with the lawmakers and not the engineers.


So WESHOOT2, am I to assume that you are a wheelgun only man? or do you have a semi-auto or two lying around? Your arguments against LCIs are the same as the arguments against semis.

Although I do agree that inexperienced shooters might rely too much on the LCI and not learn proper gun safety (similar to the argument that comes up when discussing LAMs) but gun safety is the responsibiltiy of every gun owner regardless of the bells and whistles on their guns.

 

[Hoppy]

SIG Loaded Chamber Indicator

I have seen it. It's not a doohicky or moving part so it shouldn't malfunction. It's also not anything that protrudes from the frame so you couldn't verify anything in the dark. It is a half moon cut out of the top of the very rear of the barrel. When you look down on top of the gun you will see the rim of the cartridge if there is one.

I don't see anything wrong with the one they have. Nothing will replace using your brain though and things like this should not be legislated.

By the way, Sig has a new pistol called the Mauser M2, anyone seen it, shot it?

 

[SIGarmed]

Does anybody think that Sig just had this epiphany and decided to put chamber load indicators on their pistols? All these years and they were fine,but now this? Why did they do it?
They did it because of politics plain and simple. That and probably the anticipation of litigation,and legislation that can hurt their bottom line. What that does is the set the wrong precedence because now the anti-gun crowd will use this to make more changes. Whats next? magna-triggers? Finger print sensing? Where does it end? There's nothing wrong with the engineering besides the obvious reliability issues with the more technical of these devices. Politicians aren't engineers. Anyone who thinks the two are not related in this decision better wake up. Its "death by a thousand cuts".

 

[Fred Hansen]

Zundfolge,

You didn't mention me in particular, but I just wanted to make my position clear. I said:

Nothing negates the need for a visual clear of any firearm. A loaded chamber indicator is a mechanical device. I would treat it in the same fashion as a safety, nice to have, but never to be relied upon.

I said this because mechanical things sometimes fail. It is the same reasoning that I use with my students: Hunter ed., N.R.A. Personal protection, and Home firearms safety. I teach them to use all of the devices on the particular firearm in question, I then explain to them why it is imperative that they treat the firearm in a fashion that will protect them, others, and property regardless of any particular device that is featured on the firearm that they are using at the time.

I think that the seatbelt analogy would fail, at least in my case, since I always attribute the potential for mechanical failure to entropy and the other laws of physics first. The sentient beings generally get the secondary blame.

SIG armed is exactly right on this. If SIG wanted to do this on their own, fine. They are doing it now because they are forced to. Prior to this most people thought that SIGs were some of the finest pistols on earth. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. See: Murphy's Law.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"Prior to this most people thought that SIGs were some of the finest pistols on earth."

That statement rather implies that simply because Sig is adding a loaded-chamber indicator that now they're going to be some of the worst pistols on earth?

Or will it be simply a case of one of the finest pistols on earth having another feature that some may not use, but that other will?

 

[Fred Hansen]

The second one. I honestly have no idea how anyone could construe the first from anything that I have ever written. Anywhere.

 

[SIGarmed]

"Prior to this most people thought that SIGs were some of the finest pistols on earth."

That statement rather implies that simply because Sig is adding a loaded-chamber indicator that now they're going to be some of the worst pistols on earth?

Or will it be simply a case of one of the finest pistols on earth having another feature that some may not use, but that other will?

How about Sigs will be "tainted by PC politicians pandering to a liberal vote".

 

[PKAY]

Check your WWII Walther (and other mfg.) P-38's. They all have loaded chamber indicators. Watch what happens, though, once the politicians and the antis get involved. They'll be dictating size, shape, and color (yes, color) of the indicator with legislation along the lines of "...indicator must protrude at least 1/4" from the rear of the slide, be triangular, and colored Day Glow Orange."

Personally, I don't care if a gunmaker wants to include such a device. It's when govt. gets involved that all hell breaks loose; when **** bird politicos, who don't know their a**es from holes in the ground let alone the mechanics of firearms, start making engineering design decisions ridiculous in scope and stupid in nature.

 

[Westtexas]

Mike, usually I agree with everything you say, but this is the exception! A systems check (or weapon check, if you like) that is done properly, can easily be performed in pitch black. IT IS TACTILE. Trigger finger feels the chamber while the "press check" is performed. EVEN IN DAYLIGHT your eyes never leave the threat. A nubbin or pin can get stuck in the LOADED position and fool you into thinking there is a round in the chamber. The ONLY WAY TO MAKE SURE IS TO CHECK the chamber, and a systems check done properly, is the way to go. Unfortunately, people these days spend more money on guns and toys than training. Bells and whistles will never replace good tactical skills.

Cheers,


Bob

 

[Mike Irwin]

OK, WestTexas, you've covered ONE of my possible scenarios.

Care to cover the other?

 

[Zundfolge]

I think that the seatbelt analogy would fail, at least in my case

In your case my analogy may very well fail...but often in these arguments there seems to be a large contingency of people who are willing to accuse any gun manufacturer who brings out a new feature that some liberal happens to like or complies with a new liberal anti-gun law of pulling a Smith & Wesson, but instead of placing the blame on the libs in office they attack the feature on engineering grounds when they no nothing of the engineering.

I think we can all agree that if Sig is putting LCIs on their guns out of political pressure that's a bad thing and we should fight it...not by attacking Sig but by continuing our fight against the antis who keep making the stupid laws.

 

[WESHOOT2]

GLUTTON

I believe there are many folks who have no idea if a rd is chambered.

I expect that more complex machines have more POTENTIAL problems than simpler ones.

Belief.........I don't care what people "believe", because that is a feeling. I want people to "understand", so that they don't count on the mechanical device (like a decocker, or safety, or loaded-chamber indicator) when their life is on the line.

The continuous expectation that a "device" is always an "enhancement" is IMO ludicrous.

Luddite rant over.

Lowest common denominator; where is Darwin when we need him?

Logic rant over.

On a personal note, I don't care what other shooters use as long as they stay safe.