Is it worth loading 40SW up to 10mm levels?

M

Marco Califo

New member
The obsolete load data being discussed can be viewed here:
http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/Freebies/RM/ramshot.html
Look in Ramshot Edition #2 page 17. 12.7 grains of Enforcer 1152 fps

Those 1150-ish velocities are replicated by non-compressed Hodgdon Longshot powder. I bought Longshot for this reason. In 40 S&W 8.0 grains of Longshot will give you 1159 fps with Hornady 40XTC.
http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

So:
1. Thread title is false, you cannot load 40 S&W to 10mm level.
2. OP's Question is "why don't people use obsolete load data (that was his pet load, and it got depublished)?
2. Answers:
>1. The load data was depublished.
>2. They are not idiots that want to go way off in the weeds and play with matches.
>3. They know Longshot and its published data makes this discussion obsolete.

Finally, a couple of observations:
1. Enforcer published loads in obsolete Edition 2, are all revolver major cartridges, except for the foray into 40 SW and a couple 45 ACP. Revolvers and autoloaders have different needs and performance issues. Most promontory is auto loads must cycle the pistol, this is not a requirement for revolvers.
2. Longshot is a shotgun powder that happens to have an excellent sweet spot for 40 SW and 10mm handguns. Further, these velocities are not matched by any other U.S. powders. The differential is about 110 fps for the same bullet and powder 40SW versus 10mm.
3. This thread reminds me of the Monty Python skit about the "argument shop". Specifically there was no actual content. I personally believe this thread has run its course, and should be locked.
 
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7

74A95

New member
Here's a picture of 15.0 grains of Enforcer in a 40 S&W case. There is about 0.160" of empty space between the top of the powder and case mouth.





Load density is not a measure of whether the powder is spilling over the case mouth if load density is greater than 100%.

Load density measures the space between the top of the powder fill to the bottom of the bullet when the bullet is seated to the recommended OAL. A 99% load density means that when the bullet is seated there is still 1% of empty space in the case under the bullet, i.e. the powder is not compressed. A 100% load density means there is no empty space between the powder and the bullet when the bullet is seated to the recommended OAL. The powder is still not compressed, but is in contact with the bullet. A 101% load density means that the powder is now starting to be compressed when the bullet is seated to the recommended OAL.

In the 40 S&W example, based on my crude measurement, the bullet can be pushed into the case 0.16" and then be called a 100% load density.
Pushing the bullet farther will make the load density go above 100% because now the powder is being compressed. Got it?
 
7

74A95

New member
Marco Califo said:
The obsolete load data being discussed can be viewed here:
http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/Freebies/RM/ramshot.html
Look in Ramshot Edition #2 page 17. 12.7 grains of Enforcer 1152 fps

Those 1150-ish velocities are replicated by non-compressed Hodgdon Longshot powder. I bought Longshot for this reason. In 40 S&W 8.0 grains of Longshot will give you 1159 fps with Hornady 40XTC.
http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol
Click to expand...

You're looking at the wrong data. The OP specifically stated it was a 165 grain bullet at 1300 fps.

Hodgdon's Longshot data stops just shy of 1200 fps for a 165 grain bullet.
 
B

BBarn

New member
Assuming the powder hasn't changed, it's still a safe load. But with Western no longer publishing the data, most reloaders will look elsewhere for their recipes.
 
D

disseminator

New member
I have shot the 8 grain LONGSHOT loads in my M&P 40 exactly 100 times. That is how many 180g HAP bullets are in a box. My M&P survived the ordeal and even shoots hot 357 SIG without too much complaining.

After loading the .40 to such levels and shooting 100 of them, I won't do it again. It WILL beat the crap out of the gun. Different powder, even a nice slow burner like ENFORCER isn't going to change the laws of Physics.

Get a 10mm if you want/need 10mm power. (Or better yet 357 Mag) As an aside; many states will not allow hunting with any type of non-expanding bullets. Just FYI.
 
7

74A95

New member
Ran a couple of test 40 S&W loads. It was hard to seat the bullet to the suggested OAL because Enforcer does not like to be compressed. Loads were fired from a 5" Ed Brown barrel.

165 Zero FMJ @ 1.170" OAL, WSPM primer, 15.0 gr Enforcer = 1293 fps.

165 Montana Gold JHP @ 1.200" OAL, CCI 500 primer, 15.0 gr Enforcer = 1212 fps.
 
P

pete2

New member
The only kabooms I've ever seen were 40 cal. Glocks....................................We assumed fired out of battery. The gun was not destroyed, blew the extractor, maybe the magazine, I don't remember the details.
As long as the powder mfg. blesses the load you are prolly Okay.
 
T

totaldla

New member
74A95 said:
Join Date: November 26, 2016
Posts: 703
Ran a couple of test 40 S&W loads. It was hard to seat the bullet to the suggested OAL because Enforcer does not like to be compressed. Loads wetre fired from a 5" Ed Brown barrel.

165 Zero FMJ @ 1.170" OAL, WSPM primer, 15.0 gr Enforcer = 1293 fps.

165 Montana Gold JHP @ 1.200" OAL, CCI 500 primer, 15.0 gr Enforcer = 1212 fps.
Click to expand...

Thank you for trying this! ( my reloading gear is in storage right now).

Whose brass? Starline was used in the published data.

But the published data velocities were with a 4" barrel. Your data makes me think 1300+fps is not possible.
 
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A

ammo.crafter

New member
40S+W

Buy a 10mm and forget about tyrying to make one gun shoot 2 cartridges...especially one that the gun was not made to fire.

Need a woods gun, buy a woods gun and be confident with that gun.

My woods handgun has been a S+W mod 57 (41mag) for the last 30 years and same has never failed to drop what I aimed at. Use 220gr cast lead with proper BHN as regards velocity of the load.
 
7

74A95

New member
ammo.crafter said:
Buy a 10mm and forget about tyrying to make one gun shoot 2 cartridges...especially one that the gun was not made to fire.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure his gun was made for 40 S&W. I'm pretty sure the load is for 40 S&W. I don't see a problem with using 40 S&W load data for a 40 S&W pistol.
 
T

totaldla

New member
ammo.crafter said:
Buy a 10mm and forget about tyrying to make one gun shoot 2 cartridges...especially one that the gun was not made to fire.

Need a woods gun, buy a woods gun and be confident with that gun.

My woods handgun has been a S+W mod 57 (41mag) for the last 30 years and same has never failed to drop what I aimed at. Use 220gr cast lead with proper BHN as regards velocity of the load.
Click to expand...
Please at least read the original post before posting.
 
A

Aguila Blanca

Staff
totaldla said:
The 40SW SAAMI MAP is 35Kpsi. The 10mm SAAMI MAP is 37.5Kpsi. The 40SW isn't a "high pressure round" IMO. It's just another cartridge.
Click to expand...
I just checked the current, on-line SAAMI pressure data, and they don't show an MAP for .40 S&W. It's listed as "N/E."

https://saami.org/wp-content/upload...FP-and-R-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf

For comparison, though:
  • 9mm Parabellum = 33,000
  • .38 Special +P = 20,000
  • .38 Super +P = 33,000
  • .380 ACP = 17,000
  • .45 ACP = 18,000

I think we can safely say that the .40 S&W, if it reaches the pressure you have indicated, is a "high pressure" round.
 
T

totaldla

New member
Aguila Blanca said:
I just checked the current, on-line SAAMI pressure data, and they don't show an MAP for .40 S&W. It's listed as "N/E."

https://saami.org/wp-content/upload...FP-and-R-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf

For comparison, though:
  • 9mm Parabellum = 33,000
  • .38 Special +P = 20,000
  • .38 Super +P = 33,000
  • .380 ACP = 17,000
  • .45 ACP = 18,000

I think we can safely say that the .40 S&W, if it reaches the pressure you have indicated, is a "high pressure" round.
Click to expand...
I just downloaded the saami chamber pressures. The map for 9mm is 35Kpsi, the map for 40sw is 35Kpsi.
You are looking at crusher data - none exists for 40sw.
 
7

74A95

New member
7

74A95

New member
totaldla said:
Thank you for trying this! ( my reloading gear is in storage right now).

Whose brass? Starline was used in the published data.

But the published data velocities were with a 4" barrel. Your data makes me think 1300+fps is not possible.
Click to expand...

I used CCI brass for the Montana Gold bullet.

Not sure what I used for the Zero FMJ load. It turns out I did that test back in 2016, but had forgot about it.

I have not compared volume capacity of the different brass brands.
 
J

jmr40

New member
Here is a link to some writeups about various cartridges and penetration with heavy for caliber Underwood hardcast ammo. I've seen similar results from other manufacturers but this is a great source with lots of data in one place. You'll get similar results with Buffalo Bore or Double Tap.

The take away is that you need to be looking at heavy for caliber hardcast bullets and not try to shoot standard bullet weights faster. These are pretty fast loads for the bullet weight but the results would be pretty good even at slower impact speeds. The 40 only got 6" less penetration than the 10mm shooting the same 200 gr bullets 250 fps faster. And both penetrated nearly 5 FEET

And that is enough penetration to easily get to vitals on even the largest 4 legged predator. With any of the cartridges.

https://generalcartridge.wordpress.com/category/field-loads/

Short version

200 gr 40 S&W @ 960 fps, 52" penetration

147 gr 9mm @ 1080 fps, 64"+ penetration. That was all the gel they had and the round wasn't recovered.

255 gr 45 ACP @ 890 fps, 53" penetration

200 gr 10mm @ 1200 fps, 58" penetration

220 gr 10mm @ 1150 fps, 60" penetration

Just for comparison 124 gr 9mm FMJ ammo only penetrated about 24".
 
U

Unclenick

Staff
A couple of points.

In theory, the perfect progressive powder that kept the pressure constant at its peak level until the bullet left the muzzle could produce velocities as high or higher than the 10 mm without exceeding 40 S&W peak pressure. It isn't a practical possibility, but I am mentioning it to be sure we distinguish between 10 mm bullet performance achieved by lower pressures and 10 mm cartridge pressures, which the 40 S&W cannot handle in guns commonly chambered for it, test barrels and TC Encores and the like notwithstanding.

Enforcer was designed to compete with magnum pistol powders, like 296/H110 and 300MP. If you fiddle with these powders in short powder spaces, the bullet has to move such a short distance to double the volume behind it that the growing space behind it (expansion) gets ahead of the speed with which the powder is making gas, so it never gets to magnum pressures. I tried this with some very heavy (325 grain) flat tip cast bullets in .44 Magnum one time and 100% case fill never passed about 25,000 psi, IIRC.

The above means using Enforcer in shorter (than magnum) pistol cases isn't particularly dangerous, but it is, as others have commented, a waste of powder due to much of the chemical energy in the powder never being converted to kinetic energy in the bullet. That's called poor ballistic efficiency. The excess powder, instead, winds up leaving the muzzle before it is done burning up. That should make for wonderful fireballs at night, but is mostly a waste of money for the shooter and increases recoil by throwing more powder weight out of the muzzle along with the bullet weight than a lighter charge of faster powder safely producing the same velocity would get you.

If you look them up, both Redding (GRx die) and Lee (Bulge Buster accessory for their Carbide Factory Crimp Die) have tools for ironing out pregnant 40 S&W cases. These occur in barrels that lack a fully supported chamber. Attempting to increase pressures in guns that already bulge cases is just asking for a gas leak to occur, especially if the case has been loaded and fired previously.

Note that SAAMI lists no +P load for this cartridge. +P is a SAAMI designation with a defined higher-than-original pressure and the fact none exists for this round probably reflects the concern with case bursting described in the last paragraph. Factories loading outside the SAAMI range use the +P+ designation so people know it is not a standard load and may not be safe in all guns. No attempt to load outside published information has been made here, so it's not a concern.

Please remember that if any such load is actually suggested in this thread, the post must start with the required warning in the sticky on the subject at the top of this forum.

For load density it is necessary to understand two different terms that differ by only one word:

Case Water Overflow Capacity (CWOC)

and

Case Water Capacity (CWC)

CWOC is the amount of water an empty case filled to its mouth holds. CWC is the amount of water that would fill the space in a case under a seated bullet with no powder present. CWOC is constant while CWC changes with bullet seating depth. Load Density (LD) is the percent of CWC taken up by powder. For the purpose of LD, the space between the grains of the powder are considered part of the powder, so the space the water could theoretically fill between powder grains is not counted, but is considered occupied.

Once LD reaches 100%, any additional powder causes the load to be compressed. Because the bullet squeezes the powder into the space between its grains and that space is considered part of the powder, the additional powder is said to exceed 100% load density even though the actual space under the bullet is unchanged. If I put 3% more powder into the case than will fit into its CWC and compress it down to the CWC volume, the load density is said to be 103%.
 
J

John0011

New member
As far as a gun for the woods goes, I would say a 44 mag.
I have a mp5 in 40 s&w I was able to get a 180 grain up to 1260 fps with some longshot, and that is with a 9 inch barrel. Probably could do better, but I didn't want to beat the thing up too bad.

I was looking into rebarreling it and the 10mm was an option, same everything except the barrel. Magazine, the hole rifle is the same.
That led me into looking up the 44 mag.
That is a wickedly powerful cartridge.

I would recommend a 44 mag.
I have checked out videos on utube comparing the 10mm to the 44mag.
44 mag is the way to go.
 
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