Here's a hypothetical situation. Let's say that you are attacked by a gang of 3 or more muggers and you are carrying a 5 shot snub nose (probably loaded w/ .38 special +p or .357 mag). Would 5 rounds be comforting enough for you or effective enough to dismantle the situation? Now these crooks could be armed as well (take that into consideration). I got in a hypothetical debate w/ some friends and they said that this is where the semiautomatic has the advantage for concealed carry = More ammo would help you handle the situation more effectively. I didn't totally agree becaue I think that if the semiauto fails to feed or extract, it would cost you precious time given the tactical scenario. Basically the only conclusion that I came up w/ would be to run like hell and if cornered or SHTF, to do your best w/ the 5 shots you have. Any thoughts?
Is 5 rounds enough?
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Several variables.
.38 special is not a particularly effective round from snubby barrels--in other words 1 shot is not likely to incapacitate an attacker. There is also no gaurantee that you will make solid hits, or even hit them at all in a stressful situation. Combine that with multiple attackers and you in trouble. If you are really good with using speedloaders and carry at least 1 extra speedloader, then you've got a solid chance IMO. But limited to just 5 .38 special bullets against multiple attackers, and you are SOL IMO.
.38 special is not a particularly effective round from snubby barrels--in other words 1 shot is not likely to incapacitate an attacker. There is also no gaurantee that you will make solid hits, or even hit them at all in a stressful situation. Combine that with multiple attackers and you in trouble. If you are really good with using speedloaders and carry at least 1 extra speedloader, then you've got a solid chance IMO. But limited to just 5 .38 special bullets against multiple attackers, and you are SOL IMO.
In addition, the gun is not the only limiting factor.
A person's training and experience also are more of a factor than the hardware in a scenario like you described.
With allies, and more firepower, I am still not at ease with the situation.
You have to remember, some if not most of the time, bad guys have the element of surprise, and if they carry hardware it will be enough hardware to prepare them for the task they have at hand. (Whatever it may be.)
Sometimes they count on surprise, fear, or victim mentality, but I wouldn't say they all do.
But they don't want to confront an armed opponent, just like you don't.
A gun is YOUR element of surprise, should you manage to use it early enough, and that depends on recognizing the when, the where, and the how.
Training, and practice with whatever you carry, be it a 5 shot 38, a 8 shot .22 or a 15 shot 9mm.
A person's training and experience also are more of a factor than the hardware in a scenario like you described.
With allies, and more firepower, I am still not at ease with the situation.
You have to remember, some if not most of the time, bad guys have the element of surprise, and if they carry hardware it will be enough hardware to prepare them for the task they have at hand. (Whatever it may be.)
Sometimes they count on surprise, fear, or victim mentality, but I wouldn't say they all do.
But they don't want to confront an armed opponent, just like you don't.
A gun is YOUR element of surprise, should you manage to use it early enough, and that depends on recognizing the when, the where, and the how.
Training, and practice with whatever you carry, be it a 5 shot 38, a 8 shot .22 or a 15 shot 9mm.
MeekAndMild
New member
Sure. Shoot past number one's ear into number two's face. Then use number one as a human shield from number three through six while you pick them off. 
Seriously, if five shots is all I have then I'd take them.
Seriously, if five shots is all I have then I'd take them.
Of course there's always a fallback plan if any are left standing after you've fired the full cylinder - paraphrase the Dirty Harry quote: "I know what you're thinking, you're thinking did he fire 5 rounds or only 4? Well, to tell you the truth I kinda forgot myself in all this excitement. .... Do you feel lucky? Well do ya punk?"
GrantLee63
New member
Consider .....
..... the fact that most people will NEVER have to use a firearm in an act of self defense. I look at it this way ..... I'm 43 years old, and have never been in a situation where I needed a firearm to defend myself. Statistically, my life is already more than half over with (damn, I'm getting old ). I've been carrying since last October when I finally got my CCW with MI's newly passed Issue on Demand law that went into effect in July of 2001. Even if I live to be 86 years old, the probability of me ever having to actually use my gun in self defense if pretty remote.
Don't get me wrong! I fully realize that there are situations that can (and do) occur where 5 shots would not be enough. But I never feel undergunned with my SP101 (5 shot - no spare ammo) in my IWB holster. (However, I must confess to carrying my newly acquired Kel-Tec P32 since I bought it a couple weeks ago - not because of the extra 2 (much less powerful) shots, but because of the extreme ease in which I can carry it in my Hedley Pocket Holster.
Bottom line: I definately feel 5 shots is more than sufficient in the highly unlikely event any of us would actually need to pull our firearms out of our holsters.
Just my .02 cents .....
..... the fact that most people will NEVER have to use a firearm in an act of self defense. I look at it this way ..... I'm 43 years old, and have never been in a situation where I needed a firearm to defend myself. Statistically, my life is already more than half over with (damn, I'm getting old
). I've been carrying since last October when I finally got my CCW with MI's newly passed Issue on Demand law that went into effect in July of 2001. Even if I live to be 86 years old, the probability of me ever having to actually use my gun in self defense if pretty remote.Don't get me wrong! I fully realize that there are situations that can (and do) occur where 5 shots would not be enough. But I never feel undergunned with my SP101 (5 shot - no spare ammo) in my IWB holster. (However, I must confess to carrying my newly acquired Kel-Tec P32 since I bought it a couple weeks ago - not because of the extra 2 (much less powerful) shots, but because of the extreme ease in which I can carry it in my Hedley Pocket Holster.
Bottom line: I definately feel 5 shots is more than sufficient in the highly unlikely event any of us would actually need to pull our firearms out of our holsters.
Just my .02 cents .....
To take down 3 muggers, probably enough.
To retreat from 3 muggers, definately. Just the sight of a gun should give you a good headstart. Shooting one would let them know chasing you is not a good idea. Then you still have 4 left. How many is enough? 5 rounds of .38 from my 340sc, or 14 rounds of .45 from my P13.45? Some say bring a shotgun or an AR-15. Sometimes, 5 rounds is all I carry. I sure hope it's enough.
To retreat from 3 muggers, definately. Just the sight of a gun should give you a good headstart. Shooting one would let them know chasing you is not a good idea. Then you still have 4 left. How many is enough? 5 rounds of .38 from my 340sc, or 14 rounds of .45 from my P13.45? Some say bring a shotgun or an AR-15. Sometimes, 5 rounds is all I carry. I sure hope it's enough.
I think the idea that one shot from a .38 snubby is "unlikely" to incapacitate an attacker is prettty silly. If YOU were just after some guy's wallet, and he shot you but didn't kill you, what would you do? I know I would get the #%$@ out of there while I still could!
Even if you're one of those statistics-obsessed individuals, I bet the major statistical studies of defensive encounters would show .38 to be an adequate solution.
Even if you're one of those statistics-obsessed individuals, I bet the major statistical studies of defensive encounters would show .38 to be an adequate solution.
I knew a fellow who carried a 5-shot revolver. He was confronted (not really attacked) by four punks.
He drew the gun and had no problem with having only five rounds, since about 1 microsecond after the gun came out, he had zero punks in front of him.
I know you can't count on that reaction, but I have known of three or four similar encounters. FWIW, as a deputy sheriff, I carried a Chiefs Special 3" square butt and never felt unarmed, though I agree that today's punks, knowing the PC cops and prosecutors won't touch them, are more likely to kill for the fun of it.
Jim
He drew the gun and had no problem with having only five rounds, since about 1 microsecond after the gun came out, he had zero punks in front of him.
I know you can't count on that reaction, but I have known of three or four similar encounters. FWIW, as a deputy sheriff, I carried a Chiefs Special 3" square butt and never felt unarmed, though I agree that today's punks, knowing the PC cops and prosecutors won't touch them, are more likely to kill for the fun of it.
Jim
Double Naught Spy
New member
Things you don't hear from gunfight survivors
1. I wish I had less ammo.
2. I wish I used a less effective caliber/type of ammo.
3. I wish I practiced less.
4. I wish my gun was less accurate.
5. I wish I was less accurate.
6. I wish I had not found cover or found less cover.
7. I wish the police got there later to help me.
8. I wish my gun was less reliable.
Are 5 shots enough for the situation you described? Well, if you don't actually have to fire the gun, then you had plenty. Five shots for three attackers, however, very well may not be enough if you actually need to shoot all of them. There is a good likelihood that you will miss with most or many of your shots. Of those shots you land, there is a strong likelihood that they will not incapacitate each bad guy as chances are that you are not going to be able to land your shots in the correct place to accomplish the task.
The argument that semi-autos are less reliable and that you might lose precious time clearing a malfunction may be a valid point. That being said, semi-autos are quicker to reload as well as carry more ammo in the gun before the need arises. If you do have a malfunction in a semi-auto, quite likely it will be one that can be cleared fairly quickly and easily with the Tap-Rack procedure. In a revolver, reload will be slower, plus if you do have a malfunction, chances are that it will be terminal for the situation. In other words, it can be very difficult to fix a revolver malfunction as well as being very slow.
Something else to consider, most revolvers today are DAO with fairly heavy and long trigger pulls. Those two traits do not lend themselves to producing accurate shooting for ineperienced shooters. This is something Ayoob talked about in Gravest Extreme. In many police shootings where the gun carried was DA for the first round and SA for subseqent rounds, Ayoob found that the accuracy of the DA rounds tended to be very poor as compared to the later single action rounds. That being said, a well trained shooter will be able to shoot a revolver just as accurately inspite of the trigger and can actually shoot the gun faster than what many semi-autos are capable of doing. Few civilians take enough time to be that proficient with revolvers.
GrantLee63 is right that chances are that you will never need to shoot your gun at somebody. However, should you need to do so, then you are going to want to be able to deliver as many rounds as needed on target(s) and so if that should happen, five shots probably will not be enough. Following that logic, don't waste time or money on more expensive larger calibers. Just go ahead and get a SA NAA Mini revolver loaded with .22 shorts. Heck, don't even bother with carrying a gun as the odds are that you will never have to use it.
Something else to consider. Whether or not you feel outgunned with a particular weapon is not all that terribly relevant except for your own piece of mind. What is relevant is whether or not you are actually outgunned in a situation.
4V50 Gary is right that 5 shots to the brain generally removes that one threat, but the situation described has three bad guys. So you put five shots into the brain of one of them. Now you have two more to face and an empty gun.
Also, in the Miami FBI shootout, but bad guys were hit in the head. Matix was struck twice in the head by .38 Special 158 gr. lead hollowpoint ammo. One shot was to the side of the cranium at the temporal bone which had the brains right behind it. However, the round did not penetrate the brain case at all. The other shot did not penetrate beyond the cheek bone under the eye. Platt was shot on the side of the forehead by the same ammo and that round failed to penetrate and simply skid around outside of the brain case and under the skin.
The brain is a fairly small target to try to hit and this is made even more difficult when the shots are on target, but don't have the capability to penetrate the bone and enter the brain.
1. I wish I had less ammo.
2. I wish I used a less effective caliber/type of ammo.
3. I wish I practiced less.
4. I wish my gun was less accurate.
5. I wish I was less accurate.
6. I wish I had not found cover or found less cover.
7. I wish the police got there later to help me.
8. I wish my gun was less reliable.
Are 5 shots enough for the situation you described? Well, if you don't actually have to fire the gun, then you had plenty. Five shots for three attackers, however, very well may not be enough if you actually need to shoot all of them. There is a good likelihood that you will miss with most or many of your shots. Of those shots you land, there is a strong likelihood that they will not incapacitate each bad guy as chances are that you are not going to be able to land your shots in the correct place to accomplish the task.
The argument that semi-autos are less reliable and that you might lose precious time clearing a malfunction may be a valid point. That being said, semi-autos are quicker to reload as well as carry more ammo in the gun before the need arises. If you do have a malfunction in a semi-auto, quite likely it will be one that can be cleared fairly quickly and easily with the Tap-Rack procedure. In a revolver, reload will be slower, plus if you do have a malfunction, chances are that it will be terminal for the situation. In other words, it can be very difficult to fix a revolver malfunction as well as being very slow.
Something else to consider, most revolvers today are DAO with fairly heavy and long trigger pulls. Those two traits do not lend themselves to producing accurate shooting for ineperienced shooters. This is something Ayoob talked about in Gravest Extreme. In many police shootings where the gun carried was DA for the first round and SA for subseqent rounds, Ayoob found that the accuracy of the DA rounds tended to be very poor as compared to the later single action rounds. That being said, a well trained shooter will be able to shoot a revolver just as accurately inspite of the trigger and can actually shoot the gun faster than what many semi-autos are capable of doing. Few civilians take enough time to be that proficient with revolvers.
GrantLee63 is right that chances are that you will never need to shoot your gun at somebody. However, should you need to do so, then you are going to want to be able to deliver as many rounds as needed on target(s) and so if that should happen, five shots probably will not be enough. Following that logic, don't waste time or money on more expensive larger calibers. Just go ahead and get a SA NAA Mini revolver loaded with .22 shorts. Heck, don't even bother with carrying a gun as the odds are that you will never have to use it.
Something else to consider. Whether or not you feel outgunned with a particular weapon is not all that terribly relevant except for your own piece of mind. What is relevant is whether or not you are actually outgunned in a situation.
4V50 Gary is right that 5 shots to the brain generally removes that one threat, but the situation described has three bad guys. So you put five shots into the brain of one of them. Now you have two more to face and an empty gun.
Also, in the Miami FBI shootout, but bad guys were hit in the head. Matix was struck twice in the head by .38 Special 158 gr. lead hollowpoint ammo. One shot was to the side of the cranium at the temporal bone which had the brains right behind it. However, the round did not penetrate the brain case at all. The other shot did not penetrate beyond the cheek bone under the eye. Platt was shot on the side of the forehead by the same ammo and that round failed to penetrate and simply skid around outside of the brain case and under the skin.
The brain is a fairly small target to try to hit and this is made even more difficult when the shots are on target, but don't have the capability to penetrate the bone and enter the brain.
Blue Duck357
New member
As I see the situation originally posted,
If your surrounded by three guys who all have guns out and drawn on you at close range whther you have a 5 shot snub, or 17 Shot Glock, no difference in outcome-you just lost
If your surrounded by three guys who all have guns out and drawn on you at close range whther you have a 5 shot snub, or 17 Shot Glock, no difference in outcome-you just lost
Three muggers?! All right - El Presidente! Sure, you can't run the two-shots-each requirement with only a 5-shot, but El Presidente was set up to deal with assassins . . . I haven't met the mugger who wouldn't break off the attack after being shot once.
Seriously, though, I'd feel fine with my 940 and my little medicine bottle with two reload clips. That's what I put in my pocket tonight when my wife and I headed for a restaurant in a "challenged" area.
I agree that I'd rather have more ammo in this situation (and the three mugger challenge is unlikely - and having the muggers hang around after you've shot the first one is highly unlikely), but, hey, I had a gun.
Seriously, though, I'd feel fine with my 940 and my little medicine bottle with two reload clips. That's what I put in my pocket tonight when my wife and I headed for a restaurant in a "challenged" area.
I agree that I'd rather have more ammo in this situation (and the three mugger challenge is unlikely - and having the muggers hang around after you've shot the first one is highly unlikely), but, hey, I had a gun.
5 shots for a few muggers looking for an easy victim is one thing. 15 or 150 ain't going to help you much with 3 guys, at close range, intent on killing you. You lost as soon as you let 3 guys with guns get too close to you. Survival at that point has a lot to do with luck and maybe divine intervention. The good news is if your fast enough, accurate enough and angry enough, you might take 1 or 2 with ya.
A snub .38 IWB, and a speedloader in the jacket pocket, and a .22Mag mouserevolver in the front pants pocket is, I believe, enough to deal with 99% of what life throws at you.
See, turn it around: the snubbie has strengths as well as liabilities. If the situation starts out at VERY close range, such as an ambush by a knifer, there is no finer gun available than a DA snubbie .38 or .357. It won't jam if fired from a pocket, it's very difficult to grab away from you, and at "muzzle contact range" the fireball will do more damage in the target than the round will. And the limited ammo supply is a total non-issue because at that range, if you haven't solved the problem in TWO rounds, you're screwed regardless.
It also tends to be faster to get in play, also critical at that range.
That's why Jim Cirrillo kept a snub .38 as his first "go to" gun, in case the situation started at close range. His plan was to then use it to make space, then switch to bigger hardware with more firepower (and more accurate) as needed. Dude would pack three to four guns doing very high-risk police work. And he used this gameplan in several actual shootouts, starting with a snubbie, ending up with a full-size 1911.
For it's "close range effectiveness", you can make an excellent case that a snubbie can solve MORE problems that a civilian CCWer might run into, than something like a full-size Beretta with full-capacity mags. Sure, the big slidegun is great when four buttheads come running at you from 25 yards out, but when a single Goblin jumps in your face from a dark alley, gimme a snub any day of the week.
So what do I do if I DO get a multiple-assailant problem? Pump out those .38s, run like hell, use a couple shots of .22Mag to give 'em something to think about as I leave.
See, turn it around: the snubbie has strengths as well as liabilities. If the situation starts out at VERY close range, such as an ambush by a knifer, there is no finer gun available than a DA snubbie .38 or .357. It won't jam if fired from a pocket, it's very difficult to grab away from you, and at "muzzle contact range" the fireball will do more damage in the target than the round will. And the limited ammo supply is a total non-issue because at that range, if you haven't solved the problem in TWO rounds, you're screwed regardless.
It also tends to be faster to get in play, also critical at that range.
That's why Jim Cirrillo kept a snub .38 as his first "go to" gun, in case the situation started at close range. His plan was to then use it to make space, then switch to bigger hardware with more firepower (and more accurate) as needed. Dude would pack three to four guns doing very high-risk police work. And he used this gameplan in several actual shootouts, starting with a snubbie, ending up with a full-size 1911
.For it's "close range effectiveness", you can make an excellent case that a snubbie can solve MORE problems that a civilian CCWer might run into, than something like a full-size Beretta with full-capacity mags. Sure, the big slidegun is great when four buttheads come running at you from 25 yards out, but when a single Goblin jumps in your face from a dark alley, gimme a snub any day of the week.
So what do I do if I DO get a multiple-assailant problem? Pump out those .38s, run like hell, use a couple shots of .22Mag to give 'em something to think about as I leave
.