irs abolishment...

fubsy

New member
I heard on a talk radio show yesterday that the republican controlled house submitted a bill to abolish the irs with in 5 years, and that the bill was killed in the rockafeller republican controlled senate. Apparently this bill was submitted a year or so ago...
The Irs was to be replaced with a flat tax which was to include foreign corporations who presently dont pay taxes?(does that sound right to ya'll), according to the show they send there money back overseas. In The same show they discussed steve forbes flat tax plan and the individual who was the guest claimed that his plan had several loop holes in it, which would have the effect of allowing less of a flat tax for the wealthier americans. The guest was a member/spokesperson for a group of ex irs agents and they provide for a fee consultation and will battle the irs for you......I was working and didnt catch the name of the group does anyone out there know it?, they also claim to be able to get people to restructure different aspects of their taxes which can allow larger refunds....Has anyone out their had any experience with these people??...fubsy.
 

Leadfoot

New member
Fubsy,

The income tax system is voluntary. You don't have to pay--legally. If you follow the law you can defeat the IRS. Knowledge is
power. People have been following this method of using the law for years without going to jail.

But don't take my word for it, check out this site: http://www.paynoincometax.com



[This message has been edited by Leadfoot (edited August 13, 1999).]
 

Jedi Oomodo

New member
Leadfoot, check your link. I got a "404 Not Found" message when I tried to follow it.

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"Is fhe'arr teicheadh math na droch fhuireach"
-Sarabian Oomodo

If it isn't Scottish, it's CRAP!

A firearm isn't a weapon until it is used as such.
 

Leadfoot

New member
Jedi,
It worked for me when I tried it. I added the http:// to it so try it again. It should open up in new browser window.
 

John/az2

New member
Another site:

http://www.anti-irs.com

Leadfoot,

Edit it to include the designation "www." before the "paynoincometax.com" That should make the link work.

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John/az

"The middle of the road between the extremes of good and evil, is evil. When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!

http://www.countdown9199.com


[This message has been edited by John/az2 (edited August 13, 1999).]
 

Jedi Oomodo

New member
Got it this time- did a cut 'n paste then added the "WWW". No time to check it out now, though. :(

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"Is fhe'arr teicheadh math na droch fhuireach"
-Sarabian Oomodo

If it isn't Scottish, it's CRAP!

A firearm isn't a weapon until it is used as such.
 

Leadfoot

New member
Ok, I modified the link. In my broswer (Netscapt 4.51) I don't need the www, but I guess some older browsers do.
It should work fine for everyone now. :)
 

Kodiac

New member
All this is BS - "Illegal Prosecusion" is STILL prosecusion.

Crying UN FAIR is not going to do you a bit of good when they arrest you, when they take all your stuff, when the take your home.

Regardless of its lack of constitutional relavence - it is still The Power That Is...
We have no choice but to obey it, or kill it!

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"But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.
"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."


RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE
 

Ivan8883

New member
Ron Paul from Texas has a bill in Congress to abolish the Federal Reserve System. Since the IRS is simply the collecting agency of this private group of Banksters who control every facet of the US economy, if the Fed Reserve was abolished we could eliminate the IRS leeches also. All the Irs does is collect your taxes to put towards the interest on the monsterous national debt that is created by the Federal Reserve System itself. THes two agencies have nothing to do with the so called Us Govt. To be correct we citizens of the US GOvt. are actually indentured servants or serfs to the private Federal Reserve System and its feudal police authority the IRS. From the morgages you owe , the fiat money you spend, and the loans you take out, all goes back to these 12 or so families of private Banksters. The few brave politicians in our history who have fought the Federal reserve or IRS have paid a big price. Senator Williams of Delaware in the fifties was ruined by the Irs when he tried to fight them. A week before Kennedy was shot he talked about cutting the power of the Federal Reserve. Ron Pauls bill has no chance. The nations ponzi scheme economic system wil have to be tanked by these Banksters so they can clear up the huge debt that they created. They will peg gold at 3g's a ounce,wiping out the debt,but leaving the masses destitute(unless you got some gold or silverstashed)This is where the NWO control systems and terror tactics will come in to play. One of the biggest traitors in American history,perhaps the greatest, was Woodrow Wilson who gave his powerful support to the creation of the Federal Reserve system and soon afterwards the seemly innocent IRS!It is a shame we have such a dumbed downed electorate who have not a clue what really controls this country.Sheeple, it aint Federal and it doesnt have any reserve!Outside of Ron Paul and a few other people in Congress, the rest of the politicos are just as stupid as their constituents. i love this rant against th Fed Reserve and its brother the IRS. Someone has to do it.
 

Futo Inu

New member
Leadfoot and others:

The paynoincometax link worked for me. I checked it out, and my assessment is this: follow their advice if you would really rather live in prison than your home.

It (the website) is absurd, it's ridiculous; it's a scam to get you to buy their stuff. There is absolutely no credence to it whatsoever. I am seething over it and the possibility of TFLers following the advice and ending up in jail and/or throwing money away (unless you realize its pleasure reading only). If you want more info, post your specific question to me. I'm a bankruptcy attorney with a BBA in accounting and deal with tax problems often. It's an extremely interesting and enticing idea - my heart was even beating faster for hope against hope that there may have been a cite to a landmark decision, but it's nothing more than a scam to get your money.

Significantly:

1) There are tons of things to read on the website, but in reality, the ONLY important thing is court opinions on cases where people have tried this tact (and they doubtlessly have). Yet the ONLY court case excerpt quoted if from J. Hand, which emphasizes the law is mandatory, NOT voluntary. He talks about evasion vs. avoidance, the latter being desirable, the former illegal.
2. The law is what the courts (and their enforcement mechanisms) say it is, not what some guy with a website says it is. Sure, you can sit in jail just like Leona and Pete yourself too, all the while knowing that you and the guy who took your money are "right" about the law, and the government and its "rogue" judges are "wrong". Believe me, I would love for it to be true more than just about anyone in the world, as I despise paying income taxes, but it just ain't.
3. It is quite a straightforward matter to point directly to the section in the internal revenue code that states "....shall pay a tax...." - that's a boldface misrepresentation. I encourage you to do the same thing the website says: Ask your accountant to point to the mandatory language. He/she will. End of story. I'm not a tax expert, but if I was I'm sure the cite would be carried around in my head - ask any CPA who practices tax.
4. The crap about lawyers and accountants leeching off the system and deceiving their clients - this is absurd. I want what is best for my clients as this is how I make money and avoid trouble with the bar association. If I give really bad advice, I get disbarred. And if I advised you to tell the feds off, you and I would both dance with glee for awhile, until you go to jail then subsequently sue me for malpractice.

I could go on and on. It's a big hoax that has such an incredible emotional and financial appeal that your eyes kind of glaze over and blind you to reality.

As far as actually challenging the validity of the ratification of the (16th?) amendment to the Const. authorizing the income tax, I'll have to check on that. It may be an argument worth trying if not already shut down by an existing opinion. But even if not, the question is "Do YOU want to be the test case?"

Also, Steve Forbes flat tax won't work either and would be unfair to the poor. HOWEVER, the idea of the national sales tax to replace the extisting tax system is a very good idea and could work (no tax at all would be even better, but lets stay in the realm of reality). Then, you are only taxed when you SPEND money, NOT if you SAVE it, and you are not taxed just by earning money, so there is no disincentive to be a capitalisitic pig, which is good for everyone in the long run.

[This message has been edited by Futo Inu (edited August 16, 1999).]
 

fubsy

New member
tks futo inu,
I agree with ya, I didnt post that to get off on the thread the way we did....but you are right in my opinion, you might get away with it for awhile----then you will have one heck of a bill to pay, and possibly jail time......I ve a very good friend who feels that its voluntary as well and Ive just finally given up trying to show him, so Im afraid that sooner or later ill be visiting him on sudays.............fubsy.
 

Ivan8883

New member
The sheeple work until the middle of May to pay not only UNCLE SCAM but their state and local taxes. And when you point this out to the dumb^%$^%*, they give you that thousand yard stare like zombies. These dumb people will be glad to pay 80% of their earnings in taxes in 8 years even if they have to work 24 hours a day. Not a` whimper or reply when Feistein or Boxer, I cant remember which said the masses will pay 80%taxesin8 years. You can always see a persons ignorance when they answer your criticism of the government with the stock reply: Well, its still the best country in the world. Maybe its 50 years of Floride that makes the masses so dumbed down.
 

fubsy

New member
Yep paying taxes suck....but I believe jail would suck too....and until its changed if ever, a paying I will do..........part of what really allows this kinda of thing is the shortness of our life spans, most people really dont become aware of much till there late 20's through their 30's, then they have to work there butts off to make ends meet, partly because Americans have b0ught into the I need it now cause its on tv and im entitled because Im an american...syndrome...kinda like there's no inflation........does anyone really believe that?, a house that my parents paid 35k for in the early 70's sold for close to a 100k within 15 years in a less than stellar housing market.......the equivalent of the vechicle purchased in the 60's is 4 to 5 times the value of that vehicle ----just look at the wages they have to go up to keep up with inflation.....
most people die in their 60's so they work for 40 years roughly, thats possibly only a max of 10 presidential and 7 senatorial and 20 represenative elections---no one group is really in long enuf with out constant wins to make any real changes....In any presidential period you have a minimum of two congressional changes, so what one group starts another co-0ps and changes to suit their view or it just dies on the vine, basically we just muddle around with out any real continuity.....unless like the democrats for over 30years you control the hammer.......sorry for the ramble--this has been bugging me for some time...fubsy.
 

Leadfoot

New member
Futo,

Schiff has a standing offer of $5000 to anyone who can show him the law that says you have to pay income tax. Maybe you should take him up on it on his radio show.. It would buy a lot of guns (or a few depending on your taste). :)

It's a call in show and he has people call in who have used his methods for YEARS and are now out of the system and have never gone to jail.

And he is not the only one who says the tax laws are voluntary. Have you heard about Joe Banaster the ex-IRS agent who resigned because he found out the whole thing was illegal? Check out his website at: http://www.freedomabovefortune.com/

Please call Schiff's radio show some evening 7-8 p.m eastern. It's on 9475Khz shortwave or on the net from his home page. This, I would like to hear!


[This message has been edited by Leadfoot (edited August 18, 1999).]
 

fubsy

New member
Yep, Ive heard those stories too, and Ive heard that ex irs agent on a local talk show who sent that memo requesting his superiors show him were the income tax is in writing a requirement----I wish he was right, but tell me something, do ya think for one minute all these really wealthy folks who have to pay hi-dollars to the tax attorneys etc., wouldnt just tell uncle sugar to stick it were the sun dont shine instead of paying taxes......guys, just because somebody has a book to sell or has a show dosent make it so,.......on the same radio station by a different host, one guy I absolutely dislike had a similar show were he was discussing this situation, he claimed that he was so interested in this at one time that he started to research all of this and he found out that these people touting this "the taxes is voluntary mess, ( I think that was how it started, but it was changed, by ww2 maybe?), they didnt own a durn thing, no house, no car, nothing the irs could take---I do know that that is how my friend is staying out of jail, he owns nothing that Im aware of, but if he ever gets married---who knows at that point, and understand me, I dont like this taxation thing, but government is force and they do use it against you. Show me one court case that this tax law has been clearly shown to be illegal, the income tax law, show me one?, i dont think it exists, these folks are selling whooooeeeee, and like barnum and bailey said theres a sucker born every minute--it seems to me that most peoples disgust and hate of our government clouds their common sense. So all of you true believers in this "the income tax is illegal stuff", are ya paying taxes?.....if not were is your commitment to your belief's? Are you as committed to your beliefs as my good friend is to his?....as an aside, my friend is not on the net, he didnt hold a job, he did jobber work were he could find it. He did manage to live for next to nothing because he lived in his parents basement, he is in his late 50's and has never, and I mean this, never worked for anyone werre there was a pay stub, mostly sub-contracting stuff, or actually had a start up business---the business he had folded through mismanagement and under funding and when he realized how much he back taxes he could have owed thats when he became an ardent supporter of "the income tax is illegal"-----
so what do ya think is going to happen when his parents die? and there estate falls to him?.......taxes suck, but lets have those supporters of no taxes show the court cases were its been ruled that the income tax is illegal....and no one since the inception of the income tax has taken this to court? Do you really believe that? When I was in college I met a young man who's father and mothers family were in the oil business, like in owning oil wells, I went to college at the university of texas at elpaso, upon discharge from the Navy., One of this young mans grandfathers was a sucessful wildcatter, he feared what the income tax would do to the wealth he had built up and he left the country to move to mexico with his money and co., to avoid paying the taxes...back them you could probably get away with that. So how bout it, are ya'll living by your principles and beliefs?
.......fubsy.
 

Dennis

Staff Emeritus
Fubsy,

Not only do I agree with you, you've prompted me to take it even further.

I've started a new thread, "Replace ALL taxes with Sales Taxes", thanks to you!
 

DC

Moderator Emeritus
More stuff on "ratification" of 16th A:
http://www.guam.net/les/txt2/attach34.txt
http://www.trustclarks.com/theman.html
http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html#ratification
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The 16th Amendment was not properly ratified.

Although the Constitution describes how to ratify amendments, it doesn't say
how we know when an amendment has been ratified. After some confusion
about the status of some amendments (including the infamous "Titles of
Nobility" amendment that fell at least one state short of ratification, but
appeared in numerous copies of the Constitution in the early and middle
1800's), Congress decided that the Secretary of State should certify what
amendments have been ratified.

The argument that the 16th Amendment was not ratified is best explained (and
refuted) by this quotation from U.S. v. Thomas, 788 F.2d 1250 (7th Cir. 1986),
cert. den. 107 S.Ct. 187 (1986):

"Thomas is a tax protester, and one of his arguments is that he did
not need to file tax returns because the sixteenth amendment is not
part of the constitution. It was not properly ratified, Thomas insists,
repeating the argument of W. Benson & M. Beckman, The Law That
Never Was (1985). Benson and Beckman review the documents
concerning the states' ratification of the sixteenth amendment and
conclude that only four states ratified the sixteenth amendment; they
insist that the official promulgation of that amendment by Secretary
of State Knox in 1913 is therefore void.

"Benson and Beckman did not discover anything; they rediscovered
something that Secretary Knox considered in 1913. Thirty-eight
states ratified the sixteenth amendment, and thirty-seven sent formal
instruments of ratification to the Secretary of State. (Minnesota
notified the Secretary orally, and additional states ratified later; we
consider only those Secretary Knox considered.) Only four
instruments repeat the language of the sixteenth amendment exactly
as Congress approved it. The others contain errors of diction,
capitalization, punctuation, and spelling. The text Congress
transmitted to the states was: "The Congress shall have power to lay
and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without
apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any
census or enumeration." Many of the instruments neglected to
capitalize "States," and some capitalized other words instead. The
instrument from Illinois had "remuneration" in place of
"enumeration"; the instrument from Missouri substituted "levy" for
"lay"; the instrument from Washington had "income" not "incomes";
others made similar blunders.

"Thomas insists that because the states did not approve exactly the
same text, the amendment did not go into effect. Secretary Knox
considered this argument. The Solicitor of the Department of State
drew up a list of the errors in the instruments and--taking into
account both the triviality of the deviations and the treatment of
earlier amendments that had experienced more substantial
problems--advised the Secretary that he was authorized to declare
the amendment adopted. The Secretary did so.

"Although Thomas urges us to take the view of several state courts
that only agreement on the literal text may make a legal document
effective, the Supreme Court follows the "enrolled bill rule." If a
legislative document is authenticated in regular form by the
appropriate officials, the court treats that document as properly
adopted. Field v. Clark, 143 U.S. 649, 36 L.Ed. 294, 12 S.Ct. 495
(1892). The principle is equally applicable to constitutional
amendments. See Leser v. Garnett, 258 U.S. 130, 66 L.Ed. 505, 42
S.Ct. 217 (1922), which treats as conclusive the declaration of the
Secretary of State that the nineteenth amendment had been
adopted. In United States v. Foster, 789 F.2d. 457, 462-463, n.6
(7th Cir. 1986), we relied on Leser, as well as the inconsequential
nature of the objections in the face of the 73-year acceptance of the
effectiveness of the sixteenth amendment, to reject a claim similar to
Thomas's. See also Coleman v. Miller, 307 U.S. 433, 83 L. Ed. 1385,
59 S. Ct. 972 (1939) (questions about ratification of amendments
may be nonjusticiable). Secretary Knox declared that enough states
had ratified the sixteenth amendment. The Secretary's decision is not
transparently defective. We need not decide when, if ever, such a
decision may be reviewed in order to know that Secretary Knox's
decision is now beyond review."

It has also been claimed that the votes of Georgia legislature were recorded
incorrectly and that Georgia actually rejected the amendment, contrary to
Knox's report. However, no Congressman or other official from Georgia has
ever complained about the "error" and, even if there was an error and Georgia
did not ratify the amendment, there would still have been thirty-seven
ratifications, one more than the thirty-six required. (Article V of the Constitution
requires that amendments to the Constitution be approved by the legislatures of
three fourths of the states, and there were forty-eight states in 1913.)
[/quote]
http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html

IRS "Attack manual": http://members.aol.com/rmckin6412/liberty/volume20.htm

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
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