Interesting observation regarding caliber differences...

JohnKSa

Administrator
I believe you that you got curious about the percentage of total tissue damaged by various rounds, did the calculations, and noticed that if you cut off two significant figures, the results were all the same. There's no reason for me not to believe that.
Frankly, it's quite offensive to make it clear that you only believe me when you can't find a reason not to.
But being an engineer, didn't you feel a little bit 'dirty' reporting a string of six identical results without commenting on the fact that from your intermediate calculations, you knew that there actually was a significant spread in the original data? I know I would.
I think that I've made it clear that I understand you don't like the results and how they were presented.

No matter how much you don't like it, that doesn't prove I did anything wrong in calculating the results or in presenting them. It doesn't mean I did anything "dirty" regardless of how you would feel or what you would have done.
I would never report six identical results without pointing out that there were significant differences in the original data that got lost in the calculations.
The initial post makes it abundantly clear that there were differences in the numbers before rounding and I reiterated that fact multiple times in my second post.
 

ScottRiqui

New member
Scott - There's no reason for me not to believe that.

John - Frankly, it's quite offensive to make it clear that you only believe me when you can't find a reason not to.

Believe it or not, that was the first inkling of me "coming around" and realizing that there was literally "no reason for me not to believe you". I see that your calculations were what you would need to do to satisfy your curiosity about percentage of total mass damaged, and that after re-reading it objectively, there's no reason for me to attribute other any motives to your post. After going outside for a smoke and thinking dispassionately about it, it fully dawned on me that I've been an ass.

I got defensive (and very offensive) about your calculations because I interpreted your original post as an implication that the wounding effectiveness of the various calibers was essentially the same, which I don't believe to be the case. That's my fault entirely, not yours. I did re-enter the thread late and didn't read all of the intermediate posts carefully enough, so I surely missed later clarifications.

I'd like to publicly apologize to you, John. I was rude and accusatory because I misinterpreted your intentions and attributed ulterior motives to your initial post that I now know I had no reason to think were there beyond my own prejudices. Again, that's a "my problem", not a "your problem". You did get snippy with me at times, but I brought it on myself by being worse toward you. I think I was perfectly correct that there are significant variances in the original data, but I realize now that has nothing to do with what you were posting about, so there's nothing sinister about the fact that you didn't preserve the differences or dwell on their magnitude.

Please believe me that it was never personal. I don't keep track of who posts what here closely enough to have any opinion of you from any other threads. This was solely about what I wrongly perceived to be a heinous "math/science foul". I argue a lot in technical threads, but I'd love to drink a beer with you.

If you want to delete all my posts in this thread in order to raise the signal-to-noise ratio, I'd understand (and would even be grateful, considering my behavior.)

Again, I'm sorry.

Scott Gardner
 
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nate45

New member
I got defensive (and very offensive) about your calculations because I interpreted your original post as an implication that the wounding effectiveness of the various calibers was essentially the same, which I don't believe to be the case.

You don't believe it to be the case. However, it is.

Even disregarding expansion, all the standard handgun service calibers (9mm-.45ACP) essential do the same thing. I know its a hard concept to wrap ones brain around, I had trouble with it myself. However, forensic evidence, pathologist's testimony and ballistic gelatin testing all concur.

Its not which one you hit with, but where you hit. Its just that simple.
 

ScottRiqui

New member
You don't believe it to be the case. However, it is.

I'll continue to think and read about it - my mind isn't made up on the subject, but that's a different thread.

My point is that I was reacting to a claim in John's post that wasn't really there.
 

JohnKSa

Administrator
Scott,

Thank you for your apology, and in return I apologize for how I handled our differences on this thread. I could have and should have been more diplomatic.

Best Regards,

John
 
Posted by nate45: You don't believe it [that the wounding effectiveness of the various calibers was essentially the same] to be the case. However, it is.

Even disregarding expansion, all the standard handgun service calibers (9mm-.45ACP) essentially do the same thing.

I know its a hard concept to wrap ones brain around, I had trouble with it myself. However, forensic evidence, pathologist's testimony and ballistic gelatin testing all concur.
Obviously, those statements have to do with terminal effects on humans and not with hunting game, where a lot of additional penetration may be needed and would not be wasted. There's also the issue of what a sworn officer might have to shoot through to hit the target. But disregarding those things, yes, that's what the experts tell us.

It goes against a lot of what I was led to believe over a half century. The legend of the .45, the boom of the magnums, and the myth of the one shot stop all led me to believe otherwise for a long time.

It's not which one you hit with, but where you hit.
Well, the FBI report did say that if you do hit a vital part, a bigger bullet is better. It didn't say by how much, but it did say it. So the question is, when that first or second shot doesn't have the desired effect because of what it did not hit, how quickly can you get back on target for the second or third? From that standpoint, bigger is probably not better.

Yes, it's all hard to wrap one's brain around.
 

Sarge

New member
It's worth mentioning here that the need for ample handgun penetration is not the exclusive realm of hunters and peace officers. A common ground shared by the police and public alike is the potential need to defend oneself against 100+ pound attack dogs, pack dogs etc. I have personally dealt with this on five occasions and not all of them were after I got a tin star.

The first one, in fact, came when I was about 20 and walking cross country after a huge snow (which had closed the roads) to get medicine for a sick kid. A good size belt knife and heavy winter clothing saved my bacon that time, but of course I got bit. In two of the other four I was attacked by two or more dogs, one of at least 100 pounds. The first time (multiple dogs) I was carrying a 1911 (230 Hydrashok) and had time to get both hands on the gun. Three shots settled accounts.

The second time I was on duty carrying a Glock 22 with 165 Golden Sabers, got surprised from behind my left shoulder and had three kids and their Grandma nearby. While turning I used my left arm to sweep kids out of the way; one hand was all I could get on the gun. I engaged the lead dog from maybe 12 feet and got four shots into his chest, shoulders and neck.* Here's the kicker... the first two shots barely slowed it down and the second two were so close I had blood and hair on my uniform pants when it was over. It still took a fifth shot to finish the dog... 105 pound pitbull mix.

My only point here is that when the trouble comes, it will be what it is- not what you think it should be. Whatever form it takes on the day it visits you, all you've got is what's on you. Just think about that, before you drop a mousegun in your pocket and go for a walk.

* An eight-pound trigger felt like 'nothing' and the noise of the shots was unnoticeable to me. I'm not a fast shooter by nature or practice, but my trigger finger found 'passing gear' for the split second it was needed.
 
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Posted by Sarge: It's worth mentioning here that the need for ample handgun penetration is not the exclusive realm of hunters and peace officers. A common ground shared by the police and public alike is the potential need to defend oneself against 100+ pound attack dogs, pack dogs etc. ... Just think about that, before you drop a mousegun in your pocket and go for a walk.
Excellent point! What might be ideal for concealed carry while walking across the WalMart parking lot adjacent to the exit from the big Interstate in the suburbs would likely not be best for hiking in meth country or along a river bank in a rural area.

If anyone hasn't ever thought about this, I believe he will when he reads the warning notice about the presence of bears on the bulletin board at the campground restroom and considers the .38 Special in his pocket!
 

Sarge

New member
John I didn't aim to derail your thread, which was proceeding along quite nicely. Sorry.. I'll hush up about devil dogs, deer and such and leave you folks to your wound volume computations.
 
Posted by Sarge: John I didn't aim to derail your thread, which was proceeding along quite nicely. Sorry.. I'll hush up about devil dogs,...
While I might be mistaken, I'll bet John doesn't mind the additional perspective. He started out talking about the terminal effects of bullets on the average person, but the fact is, when we strap on a handgun, we may face other dangers, depending upon where we are and where we are going.

The thought almost entered my mind a couple of times, but I didn't mention it. I think it is a really good observation.
 

JohnKSa

Administrator
Everything I've seen indicates that the average person is more likely to have to shoot an attacking dog than an attacking human.

It tends to be a more stressing task to stop a dog attack with a handgun because dogs don't understand what is happening and so there's not nearly the same deterrent effect that there would be on a human. Unless they're frightened away by the noise you'll have to break them down (physically incapacitate them) while the norm with human attacker is that their priorities tend to change when their life is endangered.

It's a rare situation where a human attacker must actually be physically incapacitated and when that happens it's not an easy job. Which is exactly what one would expect, knowing that on average, a handgun bullet is only going to damage 2 to 3.5 ounces of tissue.
 

tipoc

New member
This in many ways has been an unfortunate thread. John has not rethought his calculations nor rethought that they are both un-necessary and obviously misleading. These points stand and only John can resolve them. I don't expect him to as he has become emotionally wedded to the calculations. This latter is about always a mistake.

tipoc
 

JohnKSa

Administrator
John has not rethought his calculations nor rethought that they are both un-necessary and obviously misleading. These points stand and only John can resolve them.
First of all, in this context, a "point" is defined as "A significant, outstanding, or effective idea, argument, or suggestion". For a point to stand it must be supported. An assertion or allegation doesn't rise to the level of a "point" unless it is significant, outstanding or effective. In other words, it must be supported in some manner other than by repetition or opinion.

Second, if there is a problem with the calculations then anyone who understands the simple mathematics employed can resolve any issues with them. The idea that I am somehow in the exclusive possession of knowledge that is the only way to resolve any issues is incorrect.

Finally, on the off chance that it matters to anyone, after getting so much negative feedback on this thread, I bounced the calculations and results off of some of the folks I work with. Three people with advanced degrees in engineering and physics and with a combined experience in dealing with real world phenomena and the data that describes them that totals around 70 years. None could find an error in the calculations nor did any of them suggest that the results were misleading when taken in the context and accompanied by the explanations I presented.
 

ScottRiqui

New member
tipoc,

I think you may be doing the same thing I did - reading more claims into John's initial post than what were actually there.

If you wanted to know what fraction of a man's tissue was actually damaged by a gunshot, then John's methods were correct - take the published wound volumes and divide by the total volume of a typical man, using density as a conversion factor. At that point, you would notice that all of the results are the same to within a tenth of a percent of total body volume. Those were the calculations John did, and that was the observation he posted.

He didn't claim that those percentages were any kind of "measure of effectiveness" for handgun rounds, or that there weren't any significant differences between the various permanent wound volumes themselves. He was just addressing the fact that compared to a man, they're all very small.

If he had been trying to do any of those other things, then his methods would have been comically inappropriate - almost a perfect example of what NOT to do. And I have a master's degree in Applied Physics, so I'm no stranger to analyzing experimental data. I focused on how how poorly John's calculations addressed the question *I* was curious about (how the various wound volumes compare among the different calibers) and was totally blinded to the fact that that wasn't the question John was answering.

But if you just look at his inital post and think about what he's explicitly saying (and more importantly, what he's not saying), then I think it makes more sense.
 
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I should not be getting myself into this one ... but I was never the brightest, so here goes.

The standard velocity .22 short launches a 29 grain bullet at 1,045 fps with 70 ft. lbs. of energy from a 22" rifle barrel.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/22_rimfire_cartridges.htm

The 10mm Auto, in its original form, launched a 170gn JHP at 1,300fps and a 200gn JTC at 1,200fps. This is serious power, easily generating in excess of 600 ft lbs of energy.

http://www.bren-ten.com/website/id7.html

(500 S&W Mag)
Then there is the option of a 400 grain Hawk JSP bullet at a claimed MV of 1675 fps with ME of 2500 ft. lbs.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/50sw.htm

(italics mine)

I'm no expert, but it does seem like kinetic energy should factor into the 'stopping power' of a handgun round to some degree or other. The wound may not necessarily be large, but the energy transferred to the body of the person hit by the bullet is going to be exponentially greater with a larger round, and, therefore, the larger round will be more effective.

I could hit someone in the chest with the flat side of a sledgehammer and chances are it wouldn't do that much actual damage. But it'd still mess 'em up.

On the other hand, shot placement is still the first, and key, factor, and I think this may very well be John's original point.

Just my probably ill-informed two cents.
 
I'm no expert, but it does seem like kinetic energy should factor into the 'stopping power' of a handgun round to some degree or other.
It does. Kinetic energy is one factor in determining penetration performance. Other factors include bullet mass, construction, and shape.

The wound may not necessarily be large, but the energy transferred to the body of the person hit by the bullet is going to be exponentially greater with a larger round, and, therefore, the larger round will be more effective.
A commonly held belief, and apparently a misconception.

This has been discussed at some length in this thread. For your convenience, here again are two relevant excerpts from the FBI Report on Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness.

To cause significant injuries to a structure, a pistol bullet must strike that structure directly. The amount of kinetic energy lost in tissue by a pistol bullet is insufficient to cause remote injuries produced by a high velocity rifle bullet.

Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed." Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable.

I wouldn't rely on a .22 Short; the penetration capability is insufficient and the bullet is very small. The 10MM may be fine on game, but the additional penetration capability over a .40 S&W is wasted when it is fired at a human being, and unless that first bullet happens to hit something important, the time to get back on target could really hurt. Same for the .500. Not to mention the additional risk of hitting something "down range", as it were.
 
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.357SIG

New member
My "beef" with these arguments is that they allow for the spread of bogus information like it was the plague. People who know no better might pass up the gun they want because they think its not good enough, when in fact, it's as good as the one they end up getting pushed into. Then, they get to pay high costs for ammo, and learn bad habits due to higher recoil. In the end, frustration and displeasure with shooting sports on their end results.

Most women I know find the 9mm pleasant, but anything higher to be too much. I've seen a few cases where people go in for a 9mm and walk out with something in a heavier caliber because they were talked into it by someone who has no knowledge about anything ballistic or medical. Instead, they just want to soud important because they aren't getting that satisfaction of accomplishment working behind that gun shop counter. They like to be super Army Rangers and Navy SEALs rolled into one when talking to the customer. These are the folks who like to draw in the mirror and stare at the "big hole" in the front of their .45 pistol for hours at a time.

Steering a newbie toward a .357 snubby revolver they didn't want doesn't do anything but turn them off to shooting. Some poor SOB reading this probably feels they need a 10mm just to survive a squirrel attack! This is why I jump all over these threads and call out the BS.

-----

To address another argument in this thread:

Most of the varying loads available between the different common defense calibers penetrate roughly the same. The penetration argument comes into effect when dealing with lesser or greater performing rounds. This is why we don't include the .22lr as a reliable stopper in this argument (besides the unreliable rimfire ingnition). This is also why the .480 Ruger isn't included. You hit someone with a 30mm round from a GAU-8 and I bet it performs better than the 9mm, but it's not reality for civilian self-defense. This is how I feel about the .50 BMG comment made earlier. It's informative and appreciated, but not really part of this argument.

To make this more specific:

Common defense rounds from 9mm to .45, and any in between, penetrate about the same and perform about the same. The diameter and weight do little to help or hurt in this case. The little bit of "help" you get from the bigger, heavier slug is just less chance of deflection, but that's at a cost of capacity, recoil management, weapon size, etc. Bleedout, the most often cited "advantage" of larger caliber, is not real. There is nothing factual in the world to support it at all, just creative thought.

When it comes down to it, you can carry a smaller pistol, or one of equal size that holds more rounds than many of the full-size .45s out there. With the trend of criminals attacking in groups, I'd be more comfortable with 15 rounds than 7 in certain areas of the country. If 4 people rob you on the street, that gives you less than 2 rounds per person before reload, if you have one available. On top of that, you need to account for missed or bad shots, dropping the effectiveness of your 7 rounds even lower. I carry a spare mag, so most of this doesn't bother me much...just bringing it up for argument's sake.

All of this is not a call for you to dump your .40s and .45s in favor of 9mms, just to say you're getting no real-world performance gain over the latter. I know it...and I can live with it just fine. I carry 9s, .40s, 357s, 10mms, etc. at different times myself, just because I like to do so. I also drive a diesel pickup when I could probably get by with a gas V8 version. I like the diesel more, just as I like my .45 Auto H&K USP more than any of my other pistols.

When it comes down to it, carry what makes you comfortable, just don't think you have the greatest thing since sliced bread next to someone's .38 Spl snubby, ballistically.
 

JohnKSa

Administrator
...it does seem like kinetic energy should factor into the 'stopping power' of a handgun round to some degree or other.
Kinetic energy is one factor that should be understood--momentum is another.

Kinetic energy is the potential of a projectile to do work/damage. The less distance it takes the deceleration of the target material to reduce a projectile's kinetic energy by a certain amount, the more force that is applied to the target material.

Momentum (power factor is a scaled version of momentum) relates to how hard it is to stop a projectile. The less time that it takes the target material to reduce a projectile's momentum by a certain amount, the more force that is applied to the target material.

So a moving object applies force when it hits an object. How much force is applied is determined by how much kinetic energy the moving object has and how much distance it takes to stop the moving object. The shorter the distance the more force is applied by a given amount of kinetic energy. The more kinetic energy stopped in a given distance, the more force is applied.

It is also true that how much force is applied is determined by how much momentum the moving object has and how fast the moving object is stopped. The faster the moving object is stopped the more force is applied. The more momentum stopped in a given amount of time, the more force is applied.

But kinetic energy and momentum are just the most basic aspects of terminal performance.

How rapidly a projectile stops and how much distance that takes is also dependent on other factors. Bullet profile, bullet size, bullet expansion and/or fragmentation, target material hardness, etc. can all affect the amount of force a bullet applies to the target material.

And the amount of force applied is pretty much irrelevant if it's applied to a part of the "target material" that will not cause incapacitation if damaged.

It's pretty easy to see that increasing all of the parameters at once will probably help terminal performance, but it gets much less clear when you try to prove how MUCH it will help. And when two parameters go up but another two go down, then it's really difficult to get a feel for what's happening in terms of effectiveness.

And finally, there's a problem with increasing all the parameters at once. You might get a gain in terminal performance but you trade away other things that are also important. We all understand that shot placement is important--therefore it follows that shootability in a self-defense weapon is also important. Since we understand that missing is inevitable and attackers don't always come by themselves, we all understand that having an extra shot or two of capacity can be useful at times. These, and other practical factors, are affected by caliber choice and therefore should be considered as part of the decision making process.

You can't ignore terminal performance differences, but it's just as misguided to pretend that caliber selection is only about terminal performance differences. Caliber choice affects other things that can't be ignored if the goal is to make an accurate and informed decision.

Finally, it should be obvious by now that what's optimal for one person may not be a good choice for someone else. I have guns that I would recommend as good self-defense weapons that my wife can not operate properly or shoot well. She has some self-defense firearms that work well for her that wouldn't be the best choice for someone with normal hand strength and recoil tolerance.
 

tipoc

New member
Scott,
Sorry I did not get back earlier but the world is out there.

From John's original post.

Which means, among other things, that a handgun bullet from any of the common self-defense calibers listed above will, on average, leave a human 99.9% intact.

In post 25 and afterward, I said that the above may be true but that it was where the damaged tissue was that made a difference. I made the point that we were shooting humans (theoretical humans) and that they would react in the unconventional way that humans do when shot and that that made all the difference. It was shot placement then that made more of a difference then caliber, if we are speaking of standard service calibers. I pointed out that if a person who was shot were 99.9% intact then it was that .1% then that was the difference between a fella with a shattered knee, or a collapsed lung, or a serious wound but still fighting or surrendering or dead, and a person who was 100% intact.

Myself and others pointed out that the point of shooting someone was not to damage a certain percentage of abstract tissue and leave them "99.9% intact". But instead to hit them in a location that caused them to stop their aggressive actions. This usually results in more than .1% of damage.

John disagreed at that point.

I thought his approach not so useful. I still don't.

tipoc
 

JohnKSa

Administrator
In post 25 and afterward, I said that the above may be true but that it was where the damaged tissue was that made a difference.
It is true and what you say is also true. That's why I've said it myself maybe 10 times on this thread.

It's WHAT the bullet hits that is important. That has to be true because it doesn't damage enough tissue to incapacitate a person if it doesn't hit something important.
It was shot placement then that made more of a difference then caliber...
I agree 100%.
But instead to hit them in a location that caused them to stop their aggressive actions. This usually results in more than .1% of damage.
The problem is that you're confusing incapacitation with damage.

If a defender fires two bullets and one bullet damages 3 ounces of tissue in one attacker's brain and the other damages 3 ounces of tissue in the muscle and fat of another attacker's thigh, the same amount of damage has been done to each attacker--about 0.1%.

The amount of damage is the same but that doesn't mean the EFFECT, in terms of incapacitation is the same. The bullet to the brain will have a MUCH greater effect on incapacitation. NOT because it does MORE damage but because of WHAT it damages.
 
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