Interesting comment relating to long-range hunting...

[ZeroJunk]

I can see a cave man scolding his hunting partner in some guttural language for making a bad throw.

Distances have changed. But, I doubt the learning process has. Nor, the disposition and talent of various hunters.

Do your best and encourage those around you to do their best knowing that it doesn't always work out perfectly.

 

[Todd1700]

I shot at and missed a deer at 810 yards.

I don't doubt it.

As long as it's legal to each his own and let your conscience be your guide. But for me part of hunting is getting as close as you can before making the shot. The deer I hunt here in Alabama get hunted hard from the start of bow season Oct 15th to the end of gun season January 31st. That is 3 and a half months of being pursued by hunters. As a result they are some of the most human shy and skittish deer in the country. But you would be hard pressed to spook one of our deer from 800 yards even on open ground sitting in your truck flashing the headlights and honking the horn. So if you are taking 800 yards shots at game animals it is because you want to not because you need to or have to. It would be a sad ass hunter that could not stalk closer than that. People who take shots from this range are doing it on purpose just to see if they can still hit the animal from that range. It's simply using animals as live targets for long range target shooting games. And if you pull it off then yeah, great, that's a fine shot. But it's certainly no great hunting accomplishment. And hitting a metal gong from 800 yards away would be equally impressive and just as much of an accomplishment. I also do not believe that anyone alive can consistently make these 800 to 1000 yard shots first time every time under varying field conditions. Although the internet certainly seems to be a magical place where they exist in great numbers. LOL!

 

[JerryM]

If one learns to stalk game, and desires to hunt in a sporting manner he should not take 800 yard shots. Even 500 yards is a very long shot and the max that shots should be taken. 300 is a better number.

Somehow extremely long range shots have become the rage for some. It is not sporting, and not really hunting, just shooting. It goes along with riding ATVs to the max instead of walking.

Jerry

 

[TimSr]

"Hunting" is the art of getting close enough to your prey, and in the right position that a clean and consistant kill is very likely within your ability as a shooter, and within the effective range of your weapon.

Those are all judgement calls that vary greatly between hunters and weapons, so there is no majic forumla or specific numbers to rely on.

 

[bird_dog]

As a long time bow hunter of deer and bear (this is related), I am cringing now as bow technology has improved, at how often I hear guys tell of attempting shots on big game at 40-45, even 50 yards.

Yes, the bow under a good archer's guidance can accurately place an arrow that far. What the deer/animal has time to do between that arrow release and the arrow's arrival... I blame a lot of this on lack of wood craft, as an above poster said.

Getting close to game is part of the hunt. Whether close is 25 yards with a bow, or 200 yards with a gun, I feel strongly about it.

Less instant gratification, more work. No wonder it's losing popularity!

 

[jimbob86]

Shooter reaction "lag time"+lock time+time of flight ...... with some of these long range shots ..... luck has a lot to do with it .....

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

As a long time bow hunter of deer and bear (this is related), I am cringing now as bow technology has improved, at how often I hear guys tell of attempting shots on big game at 40-45, even 50 yards.

Yes, the bow under a good archer's guidance can accurately place an arrow that far. What the deer/animal has time to do between that arrow release and the arrow's arrival... I blame a lot of this on lack of wood craft, as an above poster said.

Getting close to game is part of the hunt. Whether close is 25 yards with a bow, or 200 yards with a gun, I feel strongly about it.

Less instant gratification, more work. No wonder it's losing popularity!

If shots at 45-50 yards make you cringe today, did shots at 20-25 yards make you cringe in the early 90s or 15-20 yards in the early 80s?

In 1993 I bought a new bow, I shot the lightest arrows I could find and the longest over-draw that wouldn't hit my string. That bow left people with mouths agape it was so fast, chronyed at 180fps. With normal equipment, it shot around 150fps, quite normal for the time.

Today's bows hit 300 easily. Even a "slow" bow, hits 270 with proper arrows... at 47lb draw (PSE Money Maker). Most guys shoot at least 50-60, usually maxed out or near. 300 is an afterthought.

So... 20 years ago, did a 20 yard shot make you cringe, because it's virtually identical in terms of Time of Flight to a 40 yard shot today.

 

[Gunplummer]

40-50 yards? I see guys sitting in one hedge row watching to shoot across to another hedgerow which is 60-75 yards away. You can not bring bows into this because of the kill capability. Not the same as a gun. We have guys that shoot across the river, mountain to mountain, for both deer and bear. Looks to be 400-500 yard shots. They seem to do alright. Biggest problem is the weather and being able to see that far.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

They seem to do alright.

I have no idea what that means. A 5 word assessment sentence and the two critical words are ambiguous.

So they hit some now and then, huh?

 

[Erno86]

Maybe if the Shooting Times guy aimed for a shoulder shot {not sure where his aim point was on the deer} --- instead of just behind the shoulder --- he might have made a quick kill. I know a shoulder shot will destroy more meat, but it tends to bring a quick kill without the deer advancing a single step, except for maybe a vertical leap.

With a woods crowded with hunters...I prefer a broadside shoulder shot 2/3's up from the main body, with aim point in line with the front side of the front leg, that is in a straight vertical position. Miss somewhat in front of the leg will probably result in a miss or non-fatal hit, miss low and you'll hit the bottom lungs and possibly the heart, miss high and you'll smash the upper shoulder/shoulders and possibly the spine, miss behind the rear of the shoulder; will penetrate the lungs and possibly the heart. Hit the exact spot...will break one or both his shoulders, penetrate the lungs, and will affect a central nervous system bundle that will probably keep the deer from advancing a single step.

 

[jimbob86]

You can not bring bows into this because of the kill capability. Not the same as a gun.

In terms of of time of flight, it certainly is relevant:

A 500 yard rifle shot can take 1/2 a second or more ..... much like a 300 f/sec arrow going 50 yards (150 feet, roughly) ......

 

[reynolds357]

Todd, hitting deer at 800 is no big accomplishment assuming they stand still long enough. I dont need to shoot gongs at At 800, I prefer to shoot paper at 1000. At 800, that rifle shoots about 3.5" groups. That is plenty good for a whitetail. I dont really plan to climb down out of my tower, drag my rifle down the ladder, hike 600 yards across an open field, and shoot a buck that will be long gone by the time I get there.

 

[myfriendis410]

It's nice to see others that feel as I do. Use the skills mankind has evolved to use; after all, one of the reasons we hunt is to reconnect with our basic nature. There is no bigger rush than hitting the 12 ring on a good buck at 10 yards with a bow. You've done everything right and (of course) all the stars aligned at that point to put you there.

 

[TimSr]

The 800 yard shot is for the skilled marksmen who can't hunt.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

Let's drop the nonsense about people who can't hunt because they shoot long range.

It's a choice. Some people like bow-hunting, some don't. Some like gun hunting, some don't. Some like to shoot long-range, some don't.

Drop the nonsense. Folks who do differently from you aren't stupid/unskilled/unethical because they do, any more than you are for doing differently from them.

 

[reynolds357]

Tim, I also muzzle loader hunt. I used to bow hunt until I had full shoulder reconstruction. I could probably shoot a bow again now if I wanted, but I have just not gotten back into it. Hunting 1/2 mile clear cuts and hunting brush so thick you can hardly walk in it are not mutually exclusive skill sets. Some mornings I wake up and head to the clear cut oat fields. Some mornings I wake up and head to the dense brush. Some mornings I am in the mood to hunt the swamp. All different hunting styles, but all legitimate forms of hunting.

 

[Gunplummer]

I used to do land clearing and logging. The average deer hunter is not out in the woods after deer season. Deer that are hit and lost generally get in under brush if they can. We found a lot of dead deer after rifle season in areas where long range shots could not be taken. The shotgun only areas were really bad. So a couple guys hunt long range. Big deal. Most of them at least know what their gun will do. As for comparing a bow to rifle in this discussion, it is just not relevant. I never saw a deer try to duck a bullet because it heard the bullet coming. The chance of recovering a bad hit deer using a rifle are way better than using a bow and getting a bad hit.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

I agree with most of that, GunPlummer, but no one is talking about "jumping the string".

Jumping the string is virtually impossible with modern archery equipment unless the deer is LOOKING at the shooter. The bows are so fast that the animal as no time to react to sound inside about 25 yards and so quiet that the animal will not hear or will not react beyond about 25 yards.

The point, though, is Time of Flight. It takes a modern bow about 0.6 seconds to send an arrow 50 yards. That's about how long it takes a rifle bullet to go 500 yards. 25 or 30 years ago, that 0.60 seconds would only get an arrow 25 yards. Even today, there are guys hunting with recurves and long bow that take that long to get an arrow 20 yards.

If the ToF is the same and the objection is that the animal has too much time to move, then a 25 yard shot with an old bow is just as unethical as a 500 yard shot with a rifle or a 50 yard shot with a modern bow.

Interestingly enough, I see no one able to quantify just exactly what is "acceptable risk". Since the original story in the OP is a claim that a deer was able to move too much even at 100 yards, why to we say 500 or 400 or 300? Is not 100 too far? If not, why not? What IS the acceptable risk? What range? More specifically, what ToF, because that crosses all the barriers between cartridges and weapons.

 

[Gunplummer]

"Jumping the string" is a misconception. The deer hears the arrow coming, not the bow. The only way I caught on was a really slow reacting deer one day. I don't think there is a bow faster than a deer's reaction. The difference now is the deer is not fast enough to avoid being hit high and bad. You can not even see a deer drop under an arrow on film unless the film is slowed down. Stand at the corner of your house and let someone shoot an arrow past you. You can hear the arrow screaming long before it gets to you. Feathers are really bad.
You really want to start an argument, I shot a lot of running deer with a rifle in my time. I don't go cowboy, usually only one shot. Compare that to a deer moving after the shot at a distance. I bet a lot of guys that don't like long range hunting would shoot at a running deer.

 

[reynolds357]

I understand about the noise the arrow makes. Some bows today can shoot over 350. To be conservative, lets use 300fps as a working number. The speed of sound is 1125 fps. A deer at 25 yards has 1/4 second from when it hears the bow string to when the arrow arrives. The human brain can not process reaction that quickly. There are multiple studies to prove that. The whitetail brain probably can not either, but I am aware of no studies to that fact. The noise the arrow makes begins at the same place the noise the string makes begins. They will both arrive at the deer at the same time. The initial noise the string makes and the initial noise the fletching makes, arrive at the same time. The noise the arrow makes close to the deer, arrives after the sound of the string. Shooting deer at around 100 yards, the arrow noise comes into play more. I cant hit a deer at a 100 with a bow to save my rear end, but I have seen people try it. Never seen anyone hit a deer at that range other than on you tube. From what I have seen the deer hear the arrow, but do not have a clue what it is. Their head shoots up, and thats it. It makes them spook, but not instantly by any means.