I'm so depressed after a trip to the range...

Scaramanga

New member
I went to the range today after a long day at work to run a couple of boxes through my Kimber and tell some lies with my friends. I was SO looking forward to it! Well, not only did I have one of those "can't hit the broad side of the barn days", but a couple of guys that work there (including a good friend) and a LEO explained to me how they thought the raid by Jackboot Janet was a GOOD thing. I just about blew a blood vessel feeling a huge rant coming on. I also was getting the "us against them" feeling in the room, so I left post-haste. Has anyone else run into this attitude from otherwise normal seeming range officers and such? It's almost like some people are so excited about anything "tactical" that they could give a crap about the law or whether the Clinton Administration keeps wiping its butt with the Constitution. Cripes, he even said to me, " look how correctly he is carrying his MP5 for a tactical (that word again) entry".

Aaaaarrrgggghhhhh!!!!

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Strength does not come from physical capacity.
It comes from an indomitable will. -- Mahatma Gandhi

[This message has been edited by Scaramanga (edited May 02, 2000).]
 

Donny

New member
Yeah, I know what you mean Scaramanga.

It's almost like this is THE posterchild now, of how to do a "tactical" raid.

And with such popular pubic opinion, it's sure to be a box-office hit...

Makes ya wanna puke, don't it?

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The most foolish mistake we could make would be to allow the subjected people to carry arms; history shows that all conquerers who have allowed their subjected people to carry arms have prepared their own fall.
Adolf Hitler
 

Tamara

Moderator Emeritus
There are a lot of people out there so enamoured of anything "tactical" that they forget that the 'coolness' of an MP-5 is directly proportional to the distance of its muzzle from your melon. I'm quite sure that Elian, despite being a normal young boy (which automatically makes guns 'cool'), thought that MP-5 was pretty freakin' far from cool.

I'm sure the Einsatzgruppen had swoopy tactics, and those MP-40s were very 'tactical'. Oh, yeah, and the black & silver uniforms were pretty snappy, too.

The 'armchair commando' mentality sicken me. Rural, small town PD's and Sherriff's Dept's going to fatigues and combat boots for patrol officers. Suburban departments that haven't had a hostage situation since the community was incorporated fifty years ago putting a SWAT team in the budget because it would be a blow to municipal pride to use the better funded (and trained)county SWAT. For every good officer I know in those units, there's one who is 'Barney Fife with an MP-5' (except those mags have the full 30 rounds, not just one in the shirtpocket).

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"..but never ever Fear. Fear is for the enemy. Fear and Bullets."
10mm: It's not the size of the Dawg in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!
 

DocHolliday

New member
These folks haven't examined their premises.

Since they unconditionally accept that Reno had a legal and moral right to "retrieve" the kid then the discussion boils down to:

a) She should have done what she did; an overwhelming show of force was best or

b) Naw, a plain clothes unarmed pair of fed agents should have served them a warrant, She blew the media away with excessive force. hey guys what do you think, and pass the beer.

Gee let's see:

a) Hitler was right in making the Hitler youth compulsory; it got them into the fresh air and prepared them for good soldiering.

b) Naww, Hitler should have made the Hitler youth far more low key, he would have accomplished his goals without bad press from the world--pass the beer will ya.

Sad. . .
 

Shotgun

New member
I find it unbelievable that some people do not think it is wrong for Government agents to break in your door, trash your house, attack several people in the house and kidnap a child, all without a warrant. Now before anyone gets hyper about the warrant issue, there was none shown to the home owner as is required by law prior to entry. It came out the next day that there was one. I think it was filled out and signed the next day. Same as at Waco. :mad:
 

Scaramanga

New member
Oh yeah, I also received the second Waco video tape in the mail yesterday so I just had to watch it last night while I was worked up. Nearly threw up and didn't get any sleep.

I think I should make sure to have a bit of light entertainment this evening so I don't throw a rod or something. :D

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Strength does not come from physical capacity.
It comes from an indomitable will. -- Mahatma Gandhi
 

12-34hom

New member
Can anyone here tell me what the comparision between the Einsatzgruppen and U.S. federal agents, what porpose does that serve and how is it valid.

The Einsatzgruppen's funtion was nothing more than an extention of death camps that the nazi's ran during WW2.

There is little wonder why the Us vs. Them mentality continues with posts such as this one; and the replies that spew forth from "jack booted civilians" with nothing better to do than compare U.S. Police forces to Murdering phycopaths that roamed the Soviet Union during WW2.

I too am sick of = Armchair police experts, never having served as a police officers and knowing everything there is to know on what it's like to serve as a police officer in today's society.

Are there bad cops?? Yes there are. But the overwhelming majority are good and honest folks.

Tamara needs to (reconsider her position - Dennis) and owes an apology to all the Police officers who share this board with everyone else. I don't speak for them; but i personally resent her statements and the implacations concerning police and the comparisions she made in responding to this post.

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited May 03, 2000).]
 

Art Eatman

Staff in Memoriam
Hey, look. Hindsight is sometimes 20-20, but the "grunts" sent in probably knew nothing of the issues of the warrant. Whether I think Elian should have stayed in that house or not is beside the point: All manner of threats of violence had been made, publicly, by lots of folks around the scene.

Purely from the standpoint of the agents sent in, well, they got in, got Elian, and got out--and nobody was hurt. And this has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not some small town creates its own SWAT team. Anyway, I'll bet that the agents on the scene believed they were following lawful orders.

Guessing, I'd say they had the photog along to prove they weren't beating on people. The photog was taking his own unknown chance as to anybody in the house being willing to start shooting.

No government can afford to be seen to lose to any sort of "No, you won't!" resistance. If there is any backing down on the part of the establishment, there is a loss of credibility as to their willingness to use force and the whole system begins to decay. On a day-to-day basis it's already happening in some areas...

Once certain political decisions are made as to courses of action in certain situations, the rest is pretty much foreordained--as at Ruby Ridge or Waco. There is the occasional Bo Gritz to defuse a situation, such as at Ruby Ridge; Randy Weaver lucked out.

But it's the political decisions which start the whole deal. In the Elian case, it was the White House and the Justice Department leadership. The only cure, really, is at the voting booth.

My own opinion about Elian is that I hate to see somebody returned to what I regard as a prison. To a place designated once again by President Clinton's Secretary of State Albright's State Department as a "sponsor of terrorism". (Personally, I see some contradictory thinking, here.)

At any rate, it seems to me that too many folks here in this thread are not hitting the right targets.

Me own $0.02, Art
 

Mikul

New member
Did the people in the house have their civil rights violated by having their house broken into, damage done to it, and having guns pointed at them?

Were those in the house guilty of even one crime? FYI, Elian was (and IS) not an illegal.

That's the issue for me.
 

beemerb

Moderator
This is what I have to say:
Date: May 2, 2000

JPFO Works to Protect All of the Bill of Rights

A brief answer to those who few who complained about JPFO's
alerts and billboard criticizing the federal invasion of the
private home in Florida.

1. JPFO is a civil rights organization, not a gun club.
JPFO has been encouraging all Americans to celebrate Bill of
Rights Day. The Bill of Rights is nine Amendments more than
just the Second Amendment.

2. Whenever the federal government instigates a search or
seizure in a private home, the Fourth Amendment comes into
play. It doesn't matter what the underlying issue is -- the
Fourth Amendment applies.

3. If federal government agents armed with battle gear
invade a home before dawn,

* without knocking,

* without serving a warrant,

* later claiming to have a warrant, which upon inspection
appears to be legally-defective or fraudulently-obtained,

* standing on the authority of an edict issued by an
unelected political figure,

* pointing an automatic rifle at an unarmed man holding a
child and screaming at him,

* when no criminal activity is suspected in the home, and

* when none of the occupants is suspected of committing a
crime or concealing evidence in a criminal case,

==> then America has a problem.

4. When poll results show that most Americans don't
understand the Constitutional issues involved in the federal
seizure of Elian Gonzalez, that means that JPFO has much
more work to do. JPFO won't rest until most Americans can
spot a Constitutional rights violation a mile away.

5. If you want to protect your right to keep and bear arms
(as guaranteed by the Second Amendment), then you had better
be motivated to protect all of the Bill of Rights for
everyone. All of the rights and protections of the
Constitution work together as a bulwark against tyranny.
Lose some of those rights and protections, and the others
will dribble away, too.

6. JPFO takes no position on the state law question of
custody of Elian Gonzalez. JPFO takes no position on the
immigration law question of asylum. JPFO, however, strongly
opposes any violation of the Bill of Rights.

7. The federal government does not get the "benefit of the
doubt." Government force must always answer to the
authority of the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Every
time, no exceptions. As citizens, we have the natural right
and sacred duty to watch that government like a hawk -- and
to cry out loudly when that government even looks like it is
violating the Constitution. Read the Declaration of
Independence, the Federalist Papers, and Thomas Paine's
Common Sense. JPFO takes the Founding Father's view:
eternal vigilance is the price of freedom.

8. JPFO won't stop defending the Bill of Rights just because
media talking heads, apologists for government power, and
certain polled Americans don't "get it." Quitting this
fight is the last thing we will do.

Please see "Gran'pa Jack" Number 3 -- "Common Sense": http://www.jpfo.org/gpjack3.htm which discusses every right
and protection protected by the Bill of Rights.

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beemerb
We have a criminal jury system which is superior to any in the world;
and its efficiency is only marred by the difficulty of finding twelve men
every day who don't know anything and can't read.
-Mark Twain
 

Scaramanga

New member
My original post was not meant to insult any LEO. I have the highest respect for people who take on what I consider to be mostly a dangerous, thankless job. Like any cross section of the population you get a few bad apples, but I had a different point to make. I am sick and tired of laws being broken left and right and most people I speak to have no idea, or don't care. They must take whatever the mainstream media belches forth without question. This upsets me. At what point do the sheeple start to stand up and say "Wait a minute, this is f-ed up"?

Anybody remember how many people went to federal prison after Watergate? Please correct me if I'm wrong but the current Administration seems to have been a bit more naughty.

Any thoughts?

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Strength does not come from physical capacity.
It comes from an indomitable will. -- Mahatma Gandhi
 

TAZ

New member
We have gone down this road of the JBT, Einzatzgruppen... many a times. We always come back to the same thing; dont take things personally. Not a sole on this board has ever personally attacked the LEO's present. The term JBT is not used to represent EVERY cop out there, but only those who willingly burn down churches and children, kidnap children, kill citizens for their ranches... I feel that in these instances the term is very applicable. There are bad cops, bad doctors, bad engineers... and we all have terms for them, ala Quack, Sheister, Aggie Engineer... Personally I feel like it is essential that we call them like we see them. As an engineer by profession, I would feel insulted in having an incompetent moron described with the same terms as myself. Unless I turn out to be an incompetent moron myslef, that is. Calling a guy who amputates the wrong appendage a doctor is insulting to the rest of the profession. Just as calling a baby burning, machine gun pointing federale a Police Officer should be insulting to those of you out there doing the best you can without violating people's rights and living up to your oaths of office.

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"Liberty is never unalienable; it must be redeemed regularly with the blood of patriots or it always vanishes."
-R.A. Heinlein
 

tombread

New member
Comparing Einsatzgruppen to any US police organization is worse than hyperbole-- it is really bad history. It dimininishes the horror of the liquidation squads by lightly comparing them to the BATF or US Marshals.
 

DAL

New member
12-34hom, while I'll agree with you that using the term "Einsatzgruppen" was a bit much, I can understand the anger that drove her to such hyperbole.

As to the "Us vs. Them mentality," anyone contemplating becoming a LEO had better be prepared for that sentiment. And they should expect it to only worsen in the coming decades.

Rightly or wrongly, the police often hear and absorb first hand the average citizen's (and I don't mean criminals) railing against bad government laws/policies. Of course, it's not a cop's job to evaluate/change laws/policies, but only to enforce them. As all levels of government become more intrusive, pervasive, and powerful and demand that LEOs of all stripe do even more of their devilish bidding, expect even more distrust, dislike, and outright hatred. It seems like a no-win situation for cops.

Do we really need to be police officers to express an opinion on a given police action? The simple answer is no.

I have no doubt that the majority of LEOs are decent people, but what does that mean if they are (or will be in the future) enforcing un-Constitutional laws?

Finally, having never met the woman, I can't comment on whether or not Tamara has her head up her fourth point of contact, but, unless she believes otherwise, she owes no one an apology. LEOs are not above criticism. If the criticism is justified, so be it. If it isn't justified, then I hope the readers of this board will recognize it as such and dismiss it accordingly.
DAL

P.S. Many years ago, I got some good advice on how to handle a confrontation with the police: SUBMIT. You're not going to beat the cop on the street, and if you try, you're likely to get hurt. The place to fight an unjust law is in the court and in the legislature. But if the courts and legislature are not amenable to Constitutional reasoning, you're pretty much screwed.

This advice was given to me by a lawyer, via his talk radio show, named Alan Berg. Berg, a virulent anti-gunner (I don't hold that against him too much, he was actually hilarious on many other subjects), was gunned down (murdered) in the driveway of his Denver home in 1984 by an asinine (aren't they all?) white supremacist group.

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Reading "Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal," by Ayn Rand, should be required of every politician and in every high school.
GOA, JPFO, PPFC, CSSA, LP, NRA
 

Dennis

Staff Emeritus
All,

Ref Forum Policies.

Argue opinions and viewpoint, not anatomy. Keep it clean or you're gone.
 

12-34hom

New member
Normally, i ignore the "cop bashers and haters" retoric on TFL and consider the source from which its spewed from.

In this case though the reference was so outragous that i felt that a "strong" reply was nessacary. I offer no apologies for the content of my first post, although the modorators have deemed it nessacary to modify its content.

Judge each police officer on his or her merits. Some are blinded by hate and ignorance and will never be opened minded or willing to listen to the other side of the story. Lumping police officers in with a criminal outfit such as the = "Einsatzgruppen" and its monstrous crimes and evil the perpatrated on the Soviet peoples. I could not let this one pass
without a personal reply.

Sincerly yours- another = Jack Booted Thug. :)
 
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