I'm not a rifle guy - curious about 50 BMG capabilities

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Staff
The myth of "they could use ours but we couldn't use theirs" has been around long time and I've heard it applied to several different things, all equally false.

When used by Viet Nam era bull artists/posers its usually about the Combloc .30 being confused with our .30s. iT wasn't true then, its not true now.

I don't know of any modern small arms where its true. And, by modern, I mean cartridge arms. Might have been "sorta" true during the Revolution, where SOME of our guys were armed with the French .69 caliber musket vs, the British .72 cal Brown Bess. You can fire a .69 ball from a .72 bore but not the other way around. (dimensions nominal)

There is one "modern" example, again sort of, and its not generally considered small arms. This is the medium mortar used by many nations during WWII. Both Axis and Allied nations made 8cm /81mm /82mm mortars, all based on the same prewar design (a French one, I think..) and there was SOME limited ammo cross compatibility, but this was not by intent, it was just happenstance, and not something any nation counted on.

You hear a lot of BS in the service, and from Vets who either don't know the difference or are deliberately pulling your leg.

Shall we discuss Japanese "Bamboo bullets"? hmm, no, that should probably be its own thread...:rolleyes:

The M2 .50 cal has the mechanical potential to be very accuratem, but as used in service, with service ammo, and its fairly coarse sights it doesn't reach its accuracy potential, and being an area weapon is what the military wants from it.

There is, of course, no single weapon or system that "won the war", but if you want to discuss things in those terms, my vote wouldn't be for the Garand or the 1911, but the .50 BMG. No other nation had a comparable gun & cartridge, and while they had some that were close, no one else used theirs the way we did ours.

If it was big enough to carry one, we put a .50 (or more than one) on about everything that drove, crawled, swam or flew. No one else (other than Allies using our equipment) did that. They had their .30s, and so did we, but we also had Ma Deuce, and used them, a LOT!

Other nations had their 13mm and 12.7mm guns, but their use was mostly as aircraft guns, while we used our .50 everywhere!
 

COSteve

New member
That you, by strange coincidence?
Nope, before I made Tank Commander while I were in Germany, before I got sent to RVN, I was 'drafted' by the CO for about 9 months, to take over for our Armorer who suddenly left on a compassionate discharge requested by his mom when his brother died in combat.

I was trained at Grafenwoehr in the Armorer Class there and as part of it we learned to work on them including removing the butterfly handles and installing a pistol grip and trigger to make it a sniper rifle. We also tuned the headspace for more accurate single shot shooting.

The M-2 was used in WWII as a sniper rifle to try and take out enemy Artillery Officers standing up directing fire on their cannons. The reason he could mount a starlight scope on it was that everyone of the M-2s we had had a scope mount plate attached to the cover and we had a couple of scopes in the Arms room in our Headquarters Company to use them as sniper rifles.

So, while he may have used it for that in RVN, he was far from the 1st to use it as a sniping weapon and he was about 25 years late as well.

No, I'm not the person in the story you describe. The closest thing I got to that was a game we played in RVN called "Splash the Ducks". Two tank crews would bet a case of beer on who could do it first. The game went like this.

In almost every rice paddy there was a farmer, his water buffalo, and some ducks almost always in a group together. One tank crew would fire a couple rds to the right or left of the group (their choice) causing the ducks to madly run across the water, flapping their wings, and then take off low.

The other tank's TC would fire his 50 at the water in front of the fleeing ducks trying to have the spray smack the belly of the fleeing duck, causing it to crash into the water where it would scramble to get back into the air. Hence the name "Splash the Ducks."

If you did, you won the case of beer for your crew. If, however, you accidentally hit the duck directly it would explode and you'd lose and they got the case of beer. (If you hit the water buffalo or the farmer, you lost too.)

Most times the ducks escaped un-splashed and the farmer and water buffalo would just scatter so you'd wait for the next opportunity to play where the tank crews would reverse rolls.

I'm proud to say that our tank won twice in the 9 months I was there before I got hit. The first time the other tank's TC hit the duck (that's how I know it explodes if hit directly) and we won our case of beer. Later, I got lucky and splashed one really good so that it took a while for it to get itself righted and try to take off again.

BTW, the case of beer was that God Awful 33 Beer we had over there. The best think you could say about it was that it was wet as usually it wasn't even cold. (We didn't have any refrigeration available to us unless you knew somebody in the mess hall.)
 

pete2

New member
cw308
67/68 was a hell of a year over there. I may have exaggerated about the .410. Shot a lot of .50 BMG but we aimed with the tracers.......................Welcome home Bro. A Marine I shot with at the club said they did have .50s on their choppers, Not Hueys, something bigger.
 
Looking at it from the other perspective:

1 MOA is 9 inches at 900 yards.

4-1/2 inches would obviously be 1/2 MOA, and 2-1/4 inches would be 1/4 MOA.

Don't think so.
 

JohnKSa

Administrator
Groups between 1/4 and 1/5 MOA at 900 yards using issue .50BMG machinegun ammunition. Hmmmm...

I'd be surprised to find that GI issue .50BMG ammo from that era would shoot better than 1.5-2MOA regardless of what it was fired through.
 

44 AMP

Staff
I was trained at Grafenwoehr in the Armorer Class there and as part of it we learned to work on them including removing the butterfly handles and installing a pistol grip and trigger to make it a sniper rifle.

Interesting, I was at Graf 77-78 (FSC 498th SupportBn 2nd AD) so about a decade or so behind you. Was a Small Arms Repairman (45B20) trained at APG MD, a bit higher level than "armorer".

Never heard of a pistol grip for the M2, so, either something the Army dropped before my time, or possibly a local made thing at the unit level.

The reason he could mount a starlight scope on it was that everyone of the M-2s we had had a scope mount plate attached to the cover and we had a couple of scopes in the Arms room in our Headquarters Company to use them as sniper rifles.

I saw a lot, if not most M2HBs with the cam lever scope base. It's actually part of the rear sight base. Not a WWII item, it came later with the first gen Starlight scopes. Lots of units never got the scopes but lots of M2s were fitted with the new sights with the mount. Its only 3 screws, a simple swap with the WWII era sight assy.

To the best of my knowledge no M2 .50s were mounted on Hueys during the VietNam era. Door gunners had an M60 though sometimes the M60D with the apade grips. Gunships had a pair of M60s in fixed mounts on each side, usually dispensing with the door gun, but any variation is possible, GIs can be inventive. ;)
 

50 shooter

New member
The only helicopter that I know of that had .50's mounted on it was the ACH-47A. These were a test program and only a few were made to test in Vietnam.

The ACH-47A's were attack helicopters, they had 40mm grenade launchers on the nose, 2.75 rocket launchers on the side and either M60's or M2's on the side doors/windows.
 

cw308

New member
Pete
I knew you were jerking my chain , made me laugh. The 50 was the king of the jungle as far as I'm concerned, no place to hide . We had gun trucks with a 50 and 60's supporting convoys , I saw aduce an ahalf with a quad 50 , looked like something you would see on a ship . Never road on one but sure would quiet things down . Never saw a ma on a gunship but I'm sure it could be done.. Stay Well.

Chris
 

ghbucky

New member
Other nations had their 13mm and 12.7mm guns, but their use was mostly as aircraft guns, while we used our .50 everywhere!

I recall a quote from somewhere to the effect that a B17 ball turret gunner was surrounded by ammunition that was worth more than he made in a year.
 

Drm50

New member
I just so happened M2s and 40mms were my specialty , Duster Quads. 1/44th & 4/60th RVn.M2 with brand new barrel, shovel handles and optic sight was lucky to do 12” at 100yds off solid mount. I never saw the sniper trigger unit outside of training in the states. It was either shovel handles or solenoids, for us. It’s not something every unit would have, its special issue. Starlights were even harder to come by. I still have my M2 gauges that I carried with my dog tags. No Go & Go gauge and feeler gauge for firing solenoids in Quad mount. We were on a hill top and blew a side door on the 40s. A team from Ord, came to repair gun. Warrant officer was head man. When done they had to use bore sight set to regulate guns. They did and then shot a game of splash with the 40s. Only on a water Buf not a duck. They scored direct hit and hauled ass. We caught the backlash from it and our X0 had to come from HQ and pay dinks damages.
 

Scorch

New member
I have a friend who was a waist gunner on choppers in Vietnam.
No waist gunners in helicopters. We had door gunners or window gunners, but no waist gunners. That's a WW2 thing on bombers.
Great guy but sometimes exaggerates a story for effect!
You know the difference between fairy tales and war stories, right? Fairy tales start out "once upon a time", war stories start out "now this ain't no ____". 2" at 900 yds? Nope. Stand behind a M2 when she's firing and you'll see what I mean. It's called a "cone of fire" for a reason.
 

TXAZ

New member
Groups between 1/4 and 1/5 MOA at 900 yards using issue .50BMG machinegun ammunition. Hmmmm...

I'd be surprised to find that GI issue .50BMG ammo from that era would shoot better than 1.5-2MOA regardless of what it was fired through.
My understanding is .50 BMG ball ammo is intentionally NOT precision ammo.

Shooting ball out of 'match' guns (in particular that are on sleds / locked down) tends to prove that.

What that creates is a most lethal shotgun with a 1+ mile effective range.
 

bamaranger

New member
catch

Did anybody catch that in post #3, the OP stated that he thought the 2 MOA claim was in regards to a personally owned weapon the acquaintance had AFTER Vietnam, not as a door gunner?

But the thread has made interesting reading, none the less.
 

SIGSHR

New member
Carlos Hathcock did hit an NVA at 2300 yards using an M2-weight about 81 pounds-mounted on the tripod-40 pounds-with a 10x Unertl scope from a hilltop. So he had a securely mounted weapon with a clear field of fire. Given that probably all the M2s used in Vietnam had probably seen service in WWII and Korea, and their barrels were probably not checked for wear and erosion.....
I have heard the "they could use ours...."regarding the mortars, I rather doubt their designers thought about that. The one I heard was you could fire a 5.56 round out of an AK-with what sort of accuracy ?
 

TXAZ

New member
...

The one I heard was you could fire a 5.56 round out of an AK-with what sort of accuracy ?

Well that would be an interesting shot, and accurate out to a few inches. But...
Half the area of a 7.62 barrel would be empty as a 5.56 bounced along the barrel with most of the gas escaping...
 
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