I'm not a rifle guy - curious about 50 BMG capabilities

[the45er]

I have a friend who was a waist gunner on choppers in Vietnam. Great guy but sometimes exaggerates a story for effect! He claims he had a 50 BMG that he could shoot a 2" group at 900 yards with. Now, I'm ever amazed at the ranges snipers and competitive shooters can be accurate, but this claim sounds a bit far-fetched.

Can this be done by anyone with any consistency at all?

 

[TXAZ]

Ummmmhh. No he would have had an M2.
The most precise .50BMG shooters at regional and national matches are shooting 3-4” groups with purpose built benchrest weapons at 1000 yards. By the way they take an hour to get the platform and gun setup. These are typically in the 1/2 MOA with tuned hand loaded ammo that’s usually different and matched for an individual rifle.

In comparison, the 1-mile plus sniper shots you hear about (see Wikipedia) are most often using MacMillian Tac-50 single shot or Barrett M107A1 semi rifles and factory Hornady 750 gr AMax or NAAMO / GD NM 140 / Mk-211 Raufoss penetrator (explosive) rounds.
I have an M107A1 and it’s a 1-1.5 MOA weapon depending on the ammo.

Now compare Vietnam-era weapons (ala the helo-mounted M2) and at 900 yards, That’s more likely a 2 MOA weapon =18”.

So No, I don’t buy it.

 

[the45er]

Thanks for the reply

I think my friend was talking more recent 50 BMG ownership than his Vietnam days but I still don't think he could do that . He doesn't reload and he hasn't shot that much since Vietnam.

My brother's wife is a cousin of David Tubb (her maiden name was Tubb). Her dad was a competitive shooter as well. I have some idea of what it takes to shoot rifles at these extreme ranges and I'm pretty sure my friend was never into the sport at that level. You darned sure don't just buy a 50 BMG and shoot 2" groups at 900 yards!

 

[dahermit]

I think the door gunners on Hueys used M60 machine guns (7.62), not .50 caliber. So I think you should doubt your friend's veracity.

 

[50 shooter]

Waist gunners were on WWII planes, door gunners were on Huey helicopters. As stated above the door gunners used M60's not M2's.

MOA at 900 yards is 9" and back in Nam time, there were no .50's capable of that, let alone a 2" group!

I think your friend is exaggerating just a tad.

 

[TX Nimrod]

OTOH, Sgt. Hathcock did kill a VC at 2300 meters with an M2...but I have never seen any references to group size at any range.




.

 

[Don Fischer]

Funny thing. I keep hearing how good these sniper's were at long range. I read quite a while back that the Army Sniper manual say to get as close as you can before firing. I suspect that the Army want's a successful mission rather than a record long shot. That would make sense to me! I have never picked up a BMG 50 But I have seen a couple. Can't imagine it being a choice of a sniper. they have to carry that thing. I'm sure it's changed by now but last I heard the sniper cartridge was the 300 win mag? If that's wrong, please excuse me, all my information is second hand. Oh, come to think of it I think Vietnam sniper's used the 30-06! I'm thinking carrying a 50 BMG as a sniper would seriously effect your mobility!

 

[44 AMP]

I wouldn't take your friend's claim at face value. 2" is just too small to be credible.

That being said The Browning M2HB is one of, if not the most accurate machine guns that exist. It's accuracy is on par with good sporting rifles. It is actually TOO accurate for its military mission. Because the gun is so accurate, it didn't create a sufficiently large beaten zone to meet military requirements.

The military solution to this was to put a "dispersal factor" in the ammunition.
The specs for bullet weight (+/-) are several times the allowable variance found in other calibers. This "range" of bullet weight means that even though the gun wants to put its shots in a small area, the bullets vary enough to create the military desired spread down range.

Sgt Hathcock's long range kill with an M2 is well documented and described. The gun was on its tripod, had been fitted with a scope (10x IIRC) and had been previously zeroed on the spot where the VC later appeared. And, again IIRC was fired in single shot mode. (the M2 allows for thiis).

They were not humping an M2 around in the field as a "sniper rifle".

 

[COSteve]

My personal weapon on my tank back in RVN in '68/'69 as the Tank Commander was an M-2 fifty. I had it mounted on a cutoff ground mount welded to the top of the cupola on my M-48A3.

Sitting still, on the ground, at 900 yds you were lucky to keep the 'pattern' within the size of a large hut, if you were really good. An M-2 is an area weapon, not a precision weapon.

Yes, the barrel's headspace can be 'tuned' if you're firing it with the pistol grip single shot and with a scope, it's pretty accurate, but no where near that claimed at 900 yds.

 

[Bart B.]

The 30-06 ammo used in Winchester 70 sniper rifles during the Vietnam war was M72 match ammo. Accuracy tests at 600 yards for production lots ranged from 12 to 20 inches extreme spread in match grade bolt action test barrels. Accuracy specs was 3.5 inch mean radius at 600 yards.

Their 173-grain FMJBT bullets in each lot came from 3 or 4 different sets of dies in as many machines.

 

[TXAZ]

If his name is Lee or Dale he could shot the 2" world record shot:

https://www.1moa.org/photos-of-recent-world-records.html

These guys have rifles that have little utility other than benchrest @ 1000 yards.

Now I can think of a way he could have had a better chance:

At an altitude of 2700' / 900 yards, on a day with no wind, shooting perfectly straight down toward the exact center of the earth, with no inaccuracy due to vibrations D ), that would eliminate many of the 20+ variables that affect bullet trajectory.

 

[ghbucky]

My personal weapon on my tank back in RVN in '68/'69 as the Tank Commander was an M-2 fifty. I had it mounted on a cutoff ground mount welded to the top of the cupola on my M-48A3.

Sitting still, on the ground, at 900 yds you were lucky to keep the 'pattern' within the size of a large hut, if you were really good. An M-2 is an area weapon, not a precision weapon.

Yes, the barrel's headspace can be 'tuned' if you're firing it with the pistol grip single shot and with a scope, it's pretty accurate, but no where near that claimed at 900 yds.

My brother, who was a USMC radio man in I corps in 68 told me a story about a tanker who would get high as a kite and then sit in his tank and take snipe shots with the .50 using a starlight scope at night. He's convinced that was the first use of a .50 for sniping.

That you, by strange coincidence?

 

[cw308]

We were dropped off and picked up by choppers , door gunners used M60,s 7.62 not m2's.

 

[44caliberkid]

The OP's post made me immediately think of 50 BMG target rifles, like McMillan, Barret, or a custom build, not M2's. Barret 50's are also used for long range sniping in the Middle East wars, Iraq/ Afghanistan.

 

[jetinteriorguy]

I’d call BS on that. I met a fool back in the late seventies who claimed an AK 47 could shoot the same 30-06 our M16’s used but our rifles couldn’t shoot the ammo from an AK47. He was supposedly a Green Beret. I laughed so hard I spit out my beer, and told him he was so full of ##it. He just kind of slunk out of the room and left the party.

 

[Bart B.]

I was part of a USN shipboard team aiming then shooting one 12" diameter round at a 24" diameter airborne target 11 miles away. A direct hit. One MOA at that range subtends about 16 feet

 

[Jim Watson]

Homing round?
I have seen people make improbable shots and immediately put the gun up before they can be asked to do it again.

 

[TXAZ]

I was part of a USN shipboard team aiming then shooting one 12" diameter round, at a 24" diameter airborne target 11 miles away. A direct hit. One MOA at that range subtends about 16 feet

First shot hit with a 12” round at an airborne target 11 miles away. Daaaaang impressive shot. Was that with, perchance something like a Phoenix missile, or the naval equivalent of a Copperhead guided round?

 

[pete2]

Back in the Nam I had a .410 that at 50 yards, could shoot through the neck of a Coke bottle and knock the bottom out of the bottle without touching the neck, this with size 7-1/2 shot.
But, that was in the Nam, doesn't work here in the world. B-Troop, 1/1 CAV, 67/68.

 

[cw308]

Pete
Could spear a fish out of those streams , not every time though . 410 50 yards with the opening of a Coke bottle facing you and knocking the bottom out , maybe once . It's nice to pass on our stories though 3/39 9th Div. #10 GI , May 17 67-68 Hell of a year.