I Feel Like TFL Is Dying

[Charlie98]

Just remember, in any open forum anyone can say anything... it's up to you to distill down what you get in answers, particularly with technical questions (think reloading, for example.)

Firearms, like cars, motorcycles, computers, or any number of highly specialized things, also brings a certain amount of expertise and experience... and also some serious opinions... right or wrong.

Personally, I think TFL is a little off the rails... I see some pretty odd questions (I'm being polite...) and some even... uh... odder answers that I typically don't see on other forums, but it's a reasonable venue, it runs well, and I take it for what it's worth.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I don't want to let TFL go, but I'm running out of reasons to stay. Anyone feel the same? What can we do?

I read through your complaints. You have an interesting view of the world that doesn't seem to be based entirely in fact. You have 149 posts since 2011 and you have started 31 threads, like this one. In many of the threads you have started, you have made queries, gotten responses, and in many cases have abandoned your own threads without following up in any form or fashion and/or not answering question posed to you in the threads. You often abandon your started threads without any gratuity for the help received.

In my last few months being active on here I have noticed some very troubling patterns and changes from 2011.

In the "last few months of being active" on here? I take it that you mean this to be the last few months of non continuously being active on here because you haven't exactly been active on here the last few months. You have 21 posts since May 3 (just 5 weeks), one post in January, then nothing until back in May of 2016 when you had 1 post and then two in January of 2016.

So when you talk about TFL dying and how you don't like the changes that have occurred over time due to the patterns you see, try to understand that you haven't exactly been the solution for helping keep TFL going strong. You don't post very much. When you do post, 20% of the time it is a question to resolve some issue(s) you have and then it isn't uncommon for you to even bother staying with the thread or answering queries posted to you by responders who are trying to help you.

You don't like the way TFL is going? Don't be a part of the problem. Be a constructive and active member. Actually interact with your fellow members, particularly when you are the one wanting help.

 

[Rob228]

Some people equate # of posts with experience. Its not the case, but they won't let you think otherwise. I only stop in once a week or so now due to the amount of constant posters that have little to no actual experience, training or knowledge. The handful of people that actually know what they are talking about is the reason I do come back. The worst offenders hang out in the Tactics/Training and Pistol forums.

 

[JohnKSa]

Some people equate # of posts with experience. Its not the case, but they won't let you think otherwise.

I see this complaint a lot. What I don't see is all the posts by TFL members claiming that their post count makes them experienced.

What I DO see a lot of is people assuming (and complaining) that when a member with lots of posts speaks confidently/authoritatively, they must be doing so based on the number of posts they have.

There are many reasons a person might speak confidently/authoritatively but apparently a surprising number of members don't see it that way--they believe that it can only be the speaker is doing so because they have a lot of posts.

1. A large post count makes a member experienced in posting and in following the TFL code of conduct. That's about it.

2. If a TFL member tries to use a post count to inflate the value of their opinion (in matters unrelated to how to post on TFL or follow TFL rules), or to devalue someone else's, report it. That kind of thing is nonsense--it wastes everyone's time.

3. The ONLY thing post count is officially used for is to determine eligibility to post ads in the TFL gunshow subforum.

The worst offenders hang out in the Tactics/Training and Pistol forums.

Looking at the number of posts made in those portions of TFL will help explain why anytime there's a lot of anything at TFL, it seems to happen more in those subforums.

 

[Nathan]

Interesting.... I'm not sure I have much to add.....much has been covered

Maybe a couple additions.... Our tendency towards internet group think is a bit annoying. I can look across the handloading section and see nearly every post telling me to avoid max loads or even above the halfway point. Anybody hear of John Linebaugh??? He has developed some above max Ruger 45 Colt loads that work....and shoot well. He would be shut down and posts pulled from here. I'm just going to say h110 has a unique pressure characteristic, IME.

I've actually seen the avoid max loads and then somebody looked at data and posted the load was under min!

Maybe I could add the recent trend towards posting without proof reading...I've seen posts with no real point go on for months....with no op response. Isn't this just respect?

Last, do I really need experience to post on somebody's special topic? I have been reloading more calibers than I care to count for ~20 years. I have made everyone of them hit my accuracy target. I have never blown up a gun. I have had 3 squibs in my life. I can probably give you pointers on a 30 carbine revolver load, even though I have no experienced that. Direct experience is not always the best teacher. Often, knowing how to approach tasks the first time, set targets, evaluate results and adjust are far more important skills.

 

[JohnKSa]

Anybody hear of John Linebaugh??? He has developed some above max Ruger 45 Colt loads that work....and shoot well.

To be fair, he didn't develop those loads by asking for advice on the internet, nor did he learn to reload in the process of developing those loads. There's a reason we all know his name, and it's not just because he loaded some above max loads for Ruger revolvers.

People who can reasonably lay claim to being the next John Linebaugh or Elmer Keith (both of whom have blown up guns, by the way) and know what the risks are and have the knowledge/experience to deal with the dangers, are one thing. For the rest of us mortals, it makes a lot of sense to rely on information produced by experts, who have access to equipment and other resources we don't have, rather than striking out on our own and breaking new ground in the field of cartridge development. Or, worse yet, encouraging others to do so.

This general issue (wanting to provide uncaveated advice suitable only for highly-experienced experts) on an internet forum that can be read by virtually everyone in the entire world is something that actually comes up a lot and not just in the reloading forum. There are experts (self-proclaimed and/or actual) who apparently feel like they can't be fulfilled unless they can motivate others to follow their risky example, or at least unless they can tell everyone about their latest "out of bounds" exploits.

 

[1stmar]

Right before i read this thread i read a thread from samsmix about picking a revolver to teach from. 1/3-1/2 of the posts felt compelled to criticize rather than answer the question. We have always had good debates about procedure or tools etc but the condescending, no it all responses are up IMO.

Just answer the question, if you dont have anything good to say shut up. No one is impressed that you can attack someone and think you have a good grasp on whats going on based on a 5 line original post.

If its not constructive why post it.

 

[stephen426]

I read through your complaints. You have an interesting view of the world that doesn't seem to be based entirely in fact. You have 149 posts since 2011 and you have started 31 threads, like this one. In many of the threads you have started, you have made queries, gotten responses, and in many cases have abandoned your own threads without following up in any form or fashion and/or not answering question posed to you in the threads. You often abandon your started threads without any gratuity for the help received.

Hmmm... Is this another one of those threads? LOL

The TFL is free to use and the info is based on other's opinions and personal experiences. Hopefully we can continue to sort out the wheat from the chaff by having those with more knowledge call out those who are talking out their butts. If TFL is really not useful or appealing to you, than find better use for your time. I have personally learned a lot on here and am grateful for the experiences shared on here.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"What I DO see a lot of is people assuming (and complaining) that when a member with lots of posts speaks confidently/authoritatively, they must be doing so based on the number of posts they have."

I can't even begin to tell you how many people have accused me of that here at TFL over the years. Yes, I'm the top poster by post count. But I've never claimed that my post count somehow makes me experienced... it's my broad range of experience with a large array of firearms and my study of the history of the development of both firearms and cartridges that makes me experienced.

It was that depth of experience, even in my 20s, that got me a job as the number 3 editor for American Rifleman magazine, and it's experience that has only grown since then.

For whatever reason, the occasional member has apparently been threatened by, and has reacted poorly, to my post count. That just says to me that that individual is insecure about his own experience and knowledge. Whatever.

The one section I generally stay out of is Tactics and Training specifically because I do NOT have much in the way of formal training, and I have no desire to embroil myself in a post where my "advice" isn't based on anything other than "if it's on the internet..."



Regarding John Linebaugh...

"Anybody hear of John Linebaugh??? He has developed some above max Ruger 45 Colt loads that work....and shoot well. He would be shut down and posts pulled from here."


Actually, you're wrong.

John Linebaugh is in the industry, and has experience in firearms and cartridge design and development that is FAR beyond what probably anyone here has.

More importantly, he has access to the kind of testing equipment and facilities that are CRUCIAL for making sure that his information is safe.

If John Linebaugh came here with those credentials, and if he were to use the proper disclaimers (we have those disclaimers already in place in the Handloading forum) his information would be treated as a resource.

Gale McMillen was here for a number of years before his passing and shared some of this kind of information. He wasn't shut down because he was speaking with the authority that comes with extensive experience and with the proper access to the proper kind of information.

There's a huge difference between someone like John Linebaugh and Skippy McButtscratch when it comes to hard data and information that is crucial to ensuring that the handloading operation is done safely and soundly.

If Skippy McButtscratch were to come in here (and there have been more than a few such people over the years) advocating a heavy bullet .44 Mag load packed with a double or triple charge of a fast powder like AA 2 or WW 231 you can bet your ass he'll be shut down REALLY quickly until he comes up with data to support his claims and conclusions.

That's not an over reaction on TFL's part, that's damned prudent management of this site, all designed to keep our members safe from unverified and potentially dangerous information and to protect TFL staff and TFL's ownership from lawsuits from people who decide to try Skippy McButtscratch's data and blow themselves into the next county.

 

[J.G. Terry]

Count

This thing on counts is kinda interesting. I would be safe in saying its a measure of participation. Some of the information is that is priceless comes from people with high counts. Other times not. Take what you need and leave the rest. You can spot the fakes. These folks run their mouths giving a serious hint. The hint is that they are from Cloud Cuckoo Land. There a big difference between making an honest mistake to "blowing smoke." This latter fake stuff starts with long rants with little specific factual content. When confronted the snarky comments start. Next comes personal attacks. All along it's shameless self-promotion. Next comes"...if you knew what I know." Followed by..."you never did this..." Finally,...."You just don't understand". Remember Cloud Cuckoo Land. Argue enough and people standing around cannot tell who is who.

 

[Charlie98]

This thing on counts is kinda interesting. I would be safe in saying its a measure of participation.

I like Mike's analogy that it only shows how long they have been around and not gotten the boot. I've seen round counts extraordinarily high on other forums, but if you look maybe 99% of those are in the 'chatterbox' threads, not substantive discussion... and that's all cool, that's why those threads are present, and I'm not talking just firearm forums. It's everywhere.

I'm not really sure why this is an issue... if you don't like what you are reading, skip it. On one of the computer threads I frequent, you can 'ignore' posters that talk nonsense or smack all the time, which I do. As far as the 'free' advise given on the forum... if someone is recommending that I stuff 30grn W231 in a .45 Colt case or other nonsense, I give that post the attention it deserves... none. Granted, I know better, but it just shows that everyone has an opinion and it should be taken with a grain of salt, and everyone has different experience and experiences.

On the flip side, I've seen some pretty dumb questions posted that just lend themselves to critique... I understand the axiom that the only dumb question is the one not asked, and that's true to an extent, but, again, if the question doesn't make sense... just skip it and move along.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"you can 'ignore' posters that talk nonsense or smack all the time, which I do."

You can do that here, as well.

To do so, click on the individual's user name to the left of one of their posts.

Click "View Public Profile" from the drop down.

Directly under their name and membership status click "User Lists"

Click "Add to Ignore List."

 

[Mal H]

... Or, if you're not viewing one of their posts at the time, you can add a name or delete one from your ignore list using "Edit Ignore List" in your "UserCP" in the top menu.

 

[USSR]

I haven't been on this site for all that long, but I'd just like to say that I appreciate the fact that for the most part, it is not over-moderated. Don't know if that is a result of the staff itself or the high quality of the site members, but would like to think both. Regarding forums in general, it generally doesn't take too long to figure out who is speaking from experience and who is good at googling.

Don

 

[Sevens]

Post #22 from Double Naught Spy is spot-on and basically answers the entire discussion. I especially love the part where he points out that the OP never returns to the thread, just as we've seen here.

Meanwhile, the folks that enjoy TFL continue to do so. Much ado about nothing here, just a drive-by whining session.

 

[Mike Irwin]

And that's a good place to close this one out.

Thanks for your thoughts, folks.

Remember. TFL is ultimately what each and everyone of you make it.

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