I Don't Think I Buy The "Too Expensive To Make Colt DA Revolvers" Arguement Anymore

Ultimately, a watch should keep good time; that is what it is for. Unfortunately, it is the same for guns. While a Colt Python or Diamondback are classy, intricate, and well crafted pieces of art, they do not keep time as well, or are as durable as the more pedestrian Ruger or S&W revolvers. It is like comparing a fine mechanical watch, to a digital. The mechanical watch cannot keep up with technology, and while there are people who appreciate finely crafted things, most people just need the correct time.
 
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Pointshoot

New member
Sharpdressedman - is right on with his statement IMO. Not to get too far off the subject, instead of the expensive and beautifully crafted mechanical watch- nowadays I find myself more often wearing an electronic G-Shock. Its far more rugged than the mechanical watch (I can shoot heavy magnums with it on), waterproof, keeps accurate time down to the second, corrects itself automatically every day by checking the atomic reference, and I never have to wind it or change batteries since it is solar powered. On top of all that, its a lot cheaper than a fine mechanical watch. For guys who love fine mechanical watches, more power to 'em. Whatever you enjoy. Consumers will spend their dollars based on their own personal priorities. Its the same with watches or with revolvers (as Freedom Arms has proven with its guns).
 
Looking ahead, one of the facts of life about the old Colt DA revolvers was the amount of hand fitting required. And much of that need was a result of so many of the parts being made by people running old machines and making each part -- the machine operator had to stop turning the wheel at the exact same place for each part, or they weren't all the same size.

I can't help but think that the advent of CNC machining should make it much easier for Colt to economically produce (or REproduce) those fine revolvers with a lot less hand fitting required, for the simple reason that they can produce parts to a much finer tolerance.
 

Slopemeno

New member
Think about the *financial* decisions Colt would make if they wanted to bring the Python back...

Frame. Intricate machining with a sideplate, or cast frame like a GP-100? The GP-100 frame has to be cheaper, so that's what we'll go with. I'd probably outsource (quietly) the casting to Pinetree in AZ. Keep that to yourself, please.

Lockwork? Well, the later Troopers, Security Sixes and GP-100s have the Python lockwork BEAT on parts count, fitting required, and simplicity, so GP-100 style is the choice.

Do we make the crane assembly resemble the old Python? Well, it did only have one point of lock-up...

Pretty soon you see why a modern DA revolver looks like that. The manufacturer has to leverage technology, not hand fitting labor, to make a profit.

Buy a GP-100, and spend the other $1000 having a premium action job and a Shilen premium barrel fitted.
 

James K

Member In Memoriam
"Colt has been discussing bringing a DA revolver back sometime in the future, and my belief is that when they do, it'll probably be a Magnum Carry small frame type DA revolver."

If Colt does bring back a DA revolver, it would be of the new design, and made with MIM parts, because in spite of the ranting and raving they simply could not afford to make the old design revolvers today. But then, the ranters and ravers would scream that Colt was making junk and refuse to buy Colts. (Since they already refuse to buy from Ruger or S&W or Taurus, they are stuck with high quality RG 10's, I guess.)

Just in case you folks flunked Econ 101, the issue is not how much a gun costs retail, it is how much it costs the company to make. Retail price can be subject to customer pressure to some extent; manufacturing cost is fixed. If the amount the manufacturer can sell to the distributor for is under what the item costs to make, the company can either make the product a different way or go broke.

JIm
 

johnbt

New member
"a lot less hand fitting"

Even if there's less grunt work, it still takes the exact same level of skill to properly finish a part and fit it to the gun. Like the famous Italian shotgun maker said, the only important file stroke is the last one.

John
 

Redhawk5.5+P+

New member
Aguila Blanca

I can't help but think that the advent of CNC machining should make it much easier for Colt to economically produce (or REproduce) those fine revolvers with a lot less hand fitting required, for the simple reason that they can produce parts to a much finer tolerance.

To make a better Colt is to make the best Colt of all Colt's. No?
 
Winchester 73 said:
The point is that Colt isn't making them just because they're expensive to make. Its because of the COMBINATION of expensive to make PLUS inferior quality for the money. If a S&W is $1000 and a Colt DA is $2000, it will not be twice the quality, or even better quality at all. This goes back to something I've always said about a Python, they were never how people "remember" them today or they would not have quit making them.

Yes, they would. Colt stopped making DA revolvers because they (under previous management) essentially decided to not sell guns (other than the iconic SAA) to "civilians" (meaning non-military and non-LEO. Since the military and the cops weren't interested in DA revolvers in quantity, that's why they stopped making them. When they go back into selling guns to "the people," they had sold off or melted down the tooling for the DA revolvers so they couldn't just fire up the assembly line again.

Now that they've gone in big for CNC machining centers, it would be a lot easier to build those revolvers again. Negligible down time for setting up an "assembly line" -- just punch a Python program into a CNC machine, mount up a frame blank, and push the button.
 

BerdanSS

New member
The only reason that comes to my mind when I think about it:

Why would I buy a "new" python for probably $1800+ that would most likely be as crappy as the other sluff they put out (and put their name on) now, when I can go to the gunshow that comes around every three months and buy one of the 95%+ "old" pythons (ya know, the ones that are completely unmatched by any other DA .357 in the world) that are laying on about every fourth table for $1100-$1400? I wouldn't wiz in a tin cup for one of their "new" SAAs. I'd just buy a US firearms and be miles ahead for less.

My buddy picked up a stainless 6" python last year, 90% or better finish practically unfired with the original box and continents and really nice "blonde" wood grips for $1200 and change. and his Brother got a 100% 8" anaconda the year before that for most likely hundreds less than a "new" one would go for if they every produced such a thing.
 
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DPris

Member Emeritus
Oh no, it's incredibly more complex than just punching "Python" into a CNC machine.
That's one of the most ill-informed and naive statements I've ever seen in any thread on this subject.
Denis
 

Winchester_73

New member
Yes, they would. Colt stopped making DA revolvers because they (under previous management) essentially decided to not sell guns (other than the iconic SAA) to "civilians" (meaning non-military and non-LEO. Since the military and the cops weren't interested in DA revolvers in quantity, that's why they stopped making them. When they go back into selling guns to "the people," they had sold off or melted down the tooling for the DA revolvers so they couldn't just fire up the assembly line again.

I see what you're saying but take it to the next level - why go to LEO/government contract IF you're making money civilian wise? Why go to LEO/government contracts when it has to be one or the other? Its not a coincidence that their civilian stuff was not cutting it (IE the Python) and that people weren't paying for "Colt quality" at the time (their older stuff is nice but IMO the 1980s and on was more mediocre) so they switched to LEO/government in order to survive. Colt didn't quit DA revolvers because "oh damn, now that were are making X for the government we can't make DA revolvers" It was more like "lets change our focus to LEO/government because its more profitable". It was planned and thought true and it worked out for them.

And what I said is true, it was inferior quality for the money, but of course, not inferior in general. They didn't really become a Taurus or something in those darker days, but for their ask price, better guns could be had.

I can't help but think that the advent of CNC machining should make it much easier for Colt to economically produce (or REproduce) those fine revolvers with a lot less hand fitting required, for the simple reason that they can produce parts to a much finer tolerance.

Oh no, it's incredibly more complex than just punching "Python" into a CNC machine.
That's one of the most ill-informed and naive statements I've ever seen in any thread on this subject.

Denis, I see where you're coming from and agree. I do think that Aguila meant that the part would start off closer to exact, but it would still require hand fitting. I suppose maybe you might also be saying that the parts should be forged or that for hand fitting, its better to start with forged parts. I don't know that either way. However, if Aguila is saying that little to no hand fitting would be needed, you are right, because that is what makes a Python a Python. There has to be hand fitting or its really no longer a deluxe gun IMO. To CNC parts and put the gun together goes against the Python's identity.

pythons (ya know, the ones that are completely unmatched by any other DA .357 in the world)

So apparently you're new to 357s - welcome - its a great caliber and there are many great 357s to chose from for your first one!
 

Winchester_73

New member
Just in case you folks flunked Econ 101, the issue is not how much a gun costs retail, it is how much it costs the company to make. Retail price can be subject to customer pressure to some extent; manufacturing cost is fixed. If the amount the manufacturer can sell to the distributor for is under what the item costs to make, the company can either make the product a different way or go broke.

So basically their MSRP is dictated by the cost to produce. I get that. In my posts, I was saying that I don't think the Python would be good enough to retail for most likely MORE than say a S&W performance center gun. I don't think the "new" Pythons (if brought back) would be good enough to have success in the intended market of higher end DA revolvers.
 

rodfac

New member
Don't know where Colt would come down on price, but guns that are over $1000 are beyond most of us...one reason that Ruger has been so successful for what is it now...over 60 years? Hand fitting, machining tolerances, and skilled workers able to do the job, in the numbers necessary to keep a production line open, are a thing of the past in my opinion...regrettably so...Rod
 

18DAI

New member
If Colt makes DA revolvers again using a minimum of cheap MIM parts, no internal locks, and manages to align the barrel properly with the frame, they will be FAR superior to any currently produced S&W. :)
 

RsqVet

New member
I predict that 20 years in the future thanks largely to CNC there will be "boutique" makers turning out any number of guns just as today we have tons of "semi-custom" 1911 makers. I say this based in the gun market as it is today and how things have unfolded in the past 25 years for the 1911.

I bet one of the first into production will be a better / custom BHP. Add to that any number of micro 380, 9 and 45 self defense guns.

Likewise I predict colt will continue to carve out a nice little market for custom 1911's and the SAA. At some point they will revisit their heritage and bring back the python as a semi-custom / custom gun. Will it be spendy? For sure. But if they do if right it will meet or exceede the older guns
 
Winchester 73 said:
I see what you're saying but take it to the next level - why go to LEO/government contract IF you're making money civilian wise? Why go to LEO/government contracts when it has to be one or the other? Its not a coincidence that their civilian stuff was not cutting it (IE the Python) and that people weren't paying for "Colt quality" at the time (their older stuff is nice but IMO the 1980s and on was more mediocre) so they switched to LEO/government in order to survive. Colt didn't quit DA revolvers because "oh damn, now that were are making X for the government we can't make DA revolvers" It was more like "lets change our focus to LEO/government because its more profitable". It was planned and thought true and it worked out for them.
No, Colt pretty much dropped out of the "civilian" market because they were taken over by leadership who didn't believe "civilians" should own guns, and who perceived selling guns to "civilians" as being a liability concern they didn't wish to carry. This was all well-known and well-publicized at the time ... it's not top-secret, eyes-only information.
 

Winchester_73

New member
No, Colt pretty much dropped out of the "civilian" market because they were taken over by leadership who didn't believe "civilians" should own guns, and who perceived selling guns to "civilians" as being a liability concern they didn't wish to carry. This was all well-known and well-publicized at the time ... it's not top-secret, eyes-only information.

They also were losing their great reputation at the same time, sales were in decline, their "new" models were very lackluster, they basically did not have any good ideas left. The "revolutionary" Colt 2000 was a flop and most of their other models did not sell well. If not for the 1911s and variants, a few of the DA models, the SAA, and AR15 and variants, they wouldn't have sold much of anything. The 1911 is from 1911, the AR15 from the late 1950s, their DA revolver designs were remakes of older designs (no 44 magnum until 1990, really colt?) and the SAA was from 1873. Notice a trend here of leaning on an old design rather than new ideas? Aside from that, there were other problems such as the strike which lowered quality, the take over, etc. Most of the "new" stuff they tried flopped.

You have to understand that regardless of "new anti-gun ownership" Colt as a company was headed downhill in the 1980s, long before this ownership took over the company.

I can accept what you're saying, but it was also obviously not just what you pointed out either.
 

DPris

Member Emeritus
As I've said repeatedly before:

Colt would have to sell in VOLUME on such a gun. Not a few units here & there to fringe elements of the market willing to pay $2000 per gun largely out of nostalgia.

I would love to see Ford bring back an absolutely authentic Model A roadster, just exactly like it was built at its production peak. Will not happen, though, because even without government regulation the resulting cost would be so high only the wealthy could afford to buy one. Unit price would be in the stratusphere because the startup in turning out a totally "new" model from scratch would be huge & not recoverable in volume sales.
The Model A also couldn't compete in the modern world on several levels (speed, comfort, efficiency, longevity, etc.).
See any kind of parallel?

Colt has retained the "patterns" for the Python, I was told by a rep some time ago, but they no longer have the machinery. Nor do they have sufficient trained people to produce the old V-Spring actions, and CNC can't bypass that entirely. It's not just a matter of sticking the parts together & tossing them in boxes for the shipping department to get out.

Also repeatedly:

Bringing back the V-Springs, or even more modern versions of the MKV revolvers, would involve the entire process of setting up a new model from scratch, with the exception of already having the basic design & specs on file.

Specs for parts produced in-house would still have to be translated to CNC programming.
Parts not produced in-house (the majority of the smaller ones) would have to be specced and vendor sourcing set up.

Forged parts come from a forging house in Hartford, new dies would have to be fabricated for raw forgings.

Outsourced smaller parts would have to be carefully QC'd, paid for, routine deliveries arranged, and inventoried.

NO PART OF ANY COLT DA REVOLVER WOULD BE INTERCHANGEABLE WITH ANY OTHER EXISTING MODEL CURRENTLY IN PRODUCTION.

This would involve a major outlay in set-up costs to establish vendor networks, inventory space, and inventory control/tracking, on top of the money to pay for the parts.
Colt can't even keep up with parts on existing guns at times as it is.

Additional people (at least one or three) would have to be hired & trained on the V-Springs.
Either additional CNC machinery would have to be bought (quite expensive) or production runs would have to be integrated into current CNC resources (which would further affect availability of existing models that everybody complains about).

The entire process of bringing back a Python would take large amounts of money, and money is something Colt's not had a lot of to play with in the past 15 years or so.

To justify that level of expenditure, careful market analysis would be required and a certain positive projection would have to be in place up front to justify the risk, and all that goes back to the volume issue.

Colt can't afford to do it, as a practical matter.
Regardless of the same 20 people posting "I'd buy one!" on ten different Internet gun forums ad infinitum, the market for a new Python built to the same standards as the discontinued Python simply is not there.

Comparisons to other companies are invalid (Colt has a convoluted ownership and limited funds for development & operation), and to other guns are equally invalid (Colt makes limited numbers of the Model P because they've had tooling & processes in place for many years, by & large, and the Peacemaker is their most iconic product).

Any new DA revolver they produce, if they ever do again, will be built along the MKV lines, to compete with Ruger, Taurus, and S&W, at an equal quality & pricing level, to move in large numbers to both pay for startup costs and ensure a sustainable profit.

It will NOT be an antiquated design that almost nobody left in the gunsmithing trade can work on, STILL requires a higher level of fitting & polish (despite the idea that CNC centers can eliminate the skilled human element entirely) than designs already selling well by other companies even in a market where plastic autopistols rule, and would price itself out of the market now just as it did toward the end of original production.

CNC can't solve every problem associated with the outdated V-Springs.
Colt is much more stable now than it's been in several years, but money is still tight & has to go where they think they'll get the most return.
An expensive DA revolver can't do that for them.

And this "Colt decided not to sell guns to civilians" BS is getting very old.
At the time the DA revolvers were dropped, YOU WERE NOT BUYING ENOUGH OF THEM FOR COLT TO KEEP MAKING THEM!
Very simple business math, and no matter how many people are still nursing a personal grudge over being "abandoned" by a cold and callous gunmaker, the fact remains that Colt IS a business. Unless you're either scamming or tax dodging, the basic premise behind any business is to make money.
COLT WAS NOT MAKING MONEY ON THOSE GUNS.

They were essentially broke. They took a hard look- millions in military rifle contracts vs going and STAYING in the red on DA revolvers that weren't producing enough sales figures to justify allocating limited production funds.

Not at all hard to understand why they took the route they did.
It's business, they don't owe any customer or fan base eternal production of a product line that's losing them money.

Simple survival. Put your operating capital where it'll bring in the most return, or go under.
A very essential business principle that seems to be bafflingly hard for some to understand.
Denis
 

Winchester_73

New member
Very good post Denis. I didn't realize some of the things you mentioned.

I think part of these debates stem from people wanting to justify the extra price of a Colt, which is more a reflection of limited supply and high demand, not because any Colt was vastly superior, so superior that could no longer be made :rolleyes: Other people think that all Colts are as good as say pre war models or 1950s guns, which is not the case. I must say, I do like the older Colts and some of the more modern ones.
 

micromontenegro

New member
For those who would like to spend a while pondering the possibilities, here I bring you another parallel from the camera world: Nikon making a limited, year 2000 edition of a camera they last made in 1958. Dies long gone, operators long gone, etc. Lost money on every one of them, but gained so much positive press that in 2005 they pulled the stunt again with a harder to reproduce model.

Of course, Nikon is a corporation which is famous for not making bad marketing choices. Unlike you-know-who.

http://www.cameraquest.com/NRFS3 2000.htm

http://www.cameraquest.com/nrfblsp2005.htm
 
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