I don't get this argument anymore

45_Shooter

New member
I am making a valid statement about the fact that if you cannot be trusted to adhere to basic operation techniques you cannot be trusted to perform additional procedures.

Actually, if someone can't adhere to basic operation techniques I would want to give them a gun with a safety. Maybe it would take them longer to figure out how to be unsafe with it and give me extra time to run in the other direction:D
 

ImDisaster

New member
Wow...this argument has turned into an argument.

I will say that if you haven't mastered basic gun safety you shouldn't have a gun with or without a safety.

If you have, it doesn't matter. Go with what you prefer and are more comfortable with.
 
Nothing new about that. Using the words "Glock" and "Manual Safety" in the same post always creates the same result.
Actually, my point of view has nothing to do with Glocks at all. It has to do with manual safeties and people's false opinions that they somehow make a gun idiot proof. How many accidental shootings do you see where a person uses the excuse of "I thought the safety was on."

Then when you compound the issue with the contradictory notion that the same person that cannot be trusted to keep their finger off a trigger can somehow master the act of disengaging a safety at the proper time without thought it gets even worse...or worse yet, to remember to put it on when it needs to be on.

You are far better served by learning the basics (none of which mention a safety) listed below.

1. Treat every firearm as if it were loaded.

2. Never allow the muzzle to point at anything you are not willing to see destroyed.

3. Be sure of your target and know what lies behind it.

4. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are aligned on target.

5. Be sure your guns are never accessible to unauthorized or untrained individuals.

If you cannot be bothered to master these techniques no safety in the world will make you proficient enough to defend yourself or safe enough to those around you.
 

rellascout

Moderator
Do what you think is best for you and train to do that properly.

For me the thumb safety properly position on a gun like 1911 or BHP is second nature to me. My grip makes it almost impossible not to disengage the safety. Could I miss sure I could also wet myself in the process. SO!!!!!!!!!!

This system works for me and I get a consistent trigger pull with a SA gun that I am yet to find in striker or Glock type action. Does that mean Glocks suck. No!!!! It mean I prefer cocked and locked over Glock or DA/SA.

Your millage may vary.
 

Jermtheory

New member
i'll take a manual safety over a Serpa holster any day...they jam and you end up with your pistol locked to you.:eek:

do what you like(Serpa fans),not looking for an argument...they're definately not for me though.

i good kydex holster is the best safety for a pistol without one built in though.i wouldnt carry a Glock/M&P/etc without one.
 
i'll take a manual safety over a Serpa holster any day...
Nothing wrong with your preference but you are confusing two totally different functions. A manual safety is to prevent accidental firing and a retention holster is to maintain possession of a weapon. :)

I do not like Serpa holsters because I do not like hard plastic. I do use retention holsters sometimes though. Especially on my motorcycle. They are not intended to alter the function of the firearm (making it more or less safe) but to keep it in the holster and under my control. I like the Bianchi Carry-Lok holsters.
 

sholling

New member
I think we're getting off topic here (what else is new? :D) I'm in both camps with thumb safeties. I own pistols with thumb safeties and others without. On a pistol with a very light zero-take-up bang button I want a thumb safety. With something with a longer heavier trigger I'm fine without one. The reason that I say that it is no slower is that after you've trained yourself to properly use a thumb safety you'll find that your thumb sweeps down across the safety automatically during the draw itself. It doesn't matter if I'm drawing a 1911 or safetyless plastic pistol my thumb sweeps where that safety ought to be. That becomes as automatic as breathing with very little practice. Getting back on track - the Serpa is very dependent on everyone having the same size hands in order for the trigger finger to land reliably on the release, and that no grit, gravel, or lint balls will be blocking the mechanism. The bottom line is whatever works for you and you are comfortable with is the best choice.
 

Jermtheory

New member
Nothing wrong with your preference but you are confusing two totally different functions. A manual safety is to prevent accidental firing and a retention holster is to maintain possession of a weapon.

yeah,my point(i suppose) is that i would prefer to have to deal with the extra step of a manual safety than the risk of having my pistol locked to me...not necessarily directly related(other than both seem to be the topic here).

i can do with or without(assuming "true DA" and/or a good holster to cover the trigger) a manual safety...and if i wanted a retention holster,i would look for a system other than the Serpa.
 
It doesn't matter if I'm drawing a 1911 or safetyless plastic pistol my thumb sweeps where that safety ought to be.
That's all well and good until you carry something that is DAO with a decocker. Then you are going to be in trouble. :)
 
yeah,my point(i suppose) is that i would prefer to have to deal with the extra step of a manual safety than the risk of having my pistol locked to me...not necessarily directly related(other than both seem to be the topic here).

i can do with or without(assuming "true DA" and/or a good holster to cover the trigger) a manual safety...and if i wanted a retention holster,i would look for a system other than the Serpa.
Yeah, I personally do not care for manual safeties (for the reasons I stated before) and I am not the biggest fan of retention holsters. However, I do sometimes find a need for retention holsters (whether I like them or not) but have never found a "need" for a manual safety (although I do have carry guns that have them). :)

My biggest thing is that I have never seen people use a retention holster as a substitute for proper safety training or become lazy about the rules because of them but I have seen that happen with manual safeties. :)
 

Musketeer

New member
Nothing wrong with your preference but you are confusing two totally different functions. A manual safety is to prevent accidental firing and a retention holster is to maintain possession of a weapon.
Of course when the weapon being retained has an easier time being fired unintentionally due to a short, light trigger pull devoid of manual safeties then the positive locking feature of a Serpa holster for such a weapon becomes a device for preventing accidental firing.

I have yet to see a person incapable of error who was still breathing. The four rules are great. They are there and all should be followed. Their beauty is that even if one is violated observation of the others should result in no harm to any person. The rules themselves account for human fallibility. If the rules were being drawn up so that human fallibility were not an issue then you could do away with treating every weapon as if it were loaded and not worry about pointing it at something you are worried about shooting. After all, as long as your finger is off the trigger and you are infallible then there are no problems!
 
Of course when the weapon being retained has an easier time being fired unintentionally due to a short, light trigger pull devoid of manual safeties then the positive locking feature of a Serpa holster for such a weapon becomes a device for preventing accidental firing.
I am not following you on that one. Are you saying there is a risk of firing the gun while it is in the holster? Or is there something about the Serpa (never used one) that prevents accidental firing while drawing the pistol? :)
 

ssilicon

New member
But even the best training can fail in a tense situation. I have seen it happen to the best of soldiers. Simply panicking and forgetting to release a safety could spell doom.

Could but... how likely? Each person has to determine for themselves what they think the risk of them doing so is. If you PRACTICE draw and fire, then you practice disengaging safety along with it. If you practice that way, it should be automatic in the moment of need. Should... could.. I know.

Anyway, what are the odds of a AD in a cocked gun w/o a safety? It could happen.... how likely is it? Again it depends.

For those who feel the risk of an AD is a more worrisome happening than a failure to disengage safety in moment of need, then a safety is good. For those who feel the other way well it's just the opposite.
 

rellascout

Moderator
I think that most people are in agreement that there is no one way. There is no one solution that fits everyone.

People here get so wrapped up in their choices that they extend them to everyone else. To me that make no sense. clearly you and I are nothing alike. How could your choices be assumed to work for me.
 

rellascout

Moderator
Could but... how likely? Each person has to determine for themselves what they think the risk of them doing so is. If you PRACTICE draw and fire, then you practice disengaging safety along with it. If you practice that way, it should be automatic in the moment of need. Should... could.. I know.

Anyway, what are the odds of a AD in a cocked gun w/o a safety? It could happen.... how likely is it? Again it depends.

For those who feel the risk of an AD is a more worrisome happening than a failure to disengage safety in moment of need, then a safety is good. For those who feel the other way well it's just the opposite.

Well stated.
 
Could but... how likely?
Not very likely at all. It falls under the whole "how likely are you ever even use your gun? and then how likely is that event going to require split second action?" thing. Since most willnever use a gun for defense and over 90% of gun defenses do not even involve firing he gun the odds are pretty much negligible. It is kind of like the S&W lock issue I mentioned before. If we start dealing with only "likely" topics these boards would get awfully boring, awfully fast. It would pretty much just be thread after thread about cleaning your guns and preventing rust. :)
 

Musketeer

New member
I am not following you on that one. Are you saying there is a risk of firing the gun while it is in the holster? Or is there something about the Serpa (never used one) that prevents accidental firing while drawing the pistol?

It more positively prevents the weapon from falling out accidentally with the associated danger of an AD resulting from such a drop.
 
It more positively prevents the weapon from falling out accidentally with the associated danger of an AD resulting from such a drop.
Gotcha...I think that most guns are pretty safe drop test wise these days. I am not really sure though. Even most revolvers have transfer bars now. I think that issue would be more to do with "internal" safeties than with manual ones though and I am not sure which autos have them and which do not. They might all have them now for all I know. :)

I cannot remember the last time I saw a ND accredited to a dropped pistol. I do remember seeing some reports of rifles going off when they were knocked over.
 

rellascout

Moderator
I believe that 99% of the pistols that are in production and sold in the US today are designed to be drop safe from the factory. But that does not mean in their current condition, as carried, are drop safe.

I have seen many improperly maintained and modified guns that I would not want to drop to see if they will go bang. :eek: Some are race guns, competition guns and yes some have even been carry guns.
 
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