I checked out a "pistol" with arm brace in the gun store.

stagpanther

New member
Braces--some like em--some don't. I like em and for me I shoot better with one than without--but maybe I just can't shoot well to begin with. There sure are a whole lot of em out there--must be doing something other than look cool (actually, I don't really like the way they look). I admit they are way over-priced--should be around $30 instead a $130. I have nothing against SBR's over pistols--if that's what floats yer boat by all means get one. By keeping mine a pistol with a barrel length under 8" I get around a magazine capacity limitation for where I live. This may be irrelevant to some--but not to me.
 

Theohazard

New member
stagpanther said:
Sharkbite said:
The Buffer tube is irrelevant to legality.
Strictly speaking, maybe not--but the latest ruling holds that any configuration that can be construed as supporting an intended use of an extended stock--that could consequently possibly be used as a shoulder stock--could be interpretated as illegal.
Sharkbite is right; you can use a regular carbine buffer tube on a pistol all you want and it's still considered a pistol. Here is the specific ATF letter regarding carbine buffer tubes on AR pistols:

BB.JPG


However, notice at the end where the ATF points out that possession of a stock that could fit that carbine buffer tube could result in constructive possession of an illegal SBR. The ATF further defined the requirements for constructive possession in BATFE Ruling 2011-4.

This is something Sharkbite educated me on a while ago; I thought that merely having a carbine buffer tube on an AR pistol meant it was an illegal SBR. I was wrong. You can have an AR pistol with a carbine buffer tube as long as you don't have a stock that fits it within "close proximity" and with no other "useful purpose".
 

stagpanther

New member
I didn't actually say use of a carbine tube configured for adjustability in itself was illegal--just that having mine completely "nonadjustable" and using a stock that is not easily moved and has no means being extended easily to a position that could be potentially construed as "potential intent" for shouldering is what keeps mine (in my mind anyway) legal.

I know many feel that an arm brace is useless and that's fine--but the original intent has long been supported by the ATF as an aid to one handed pistol use (another potential can of worms).

My impression from the many inquiry letters the ATF gets regarding AR pistol use is that if they get enough of em showing how the boudaries are being pushed--they may eventually just say the heck with em and legislate them into obscurity.
 

Theohazard

New member
stagpanther said:
I didn't actually say use of a carbine tube configured for adjustability in itself was illegal--just that having mine completely "nonadjustable" and using a stock that is not easily moved and has no means being extended easily to a position that could be potentially construed as "potential intent" for shouldering is what keeps mine (in my mind anyway) legal.
I don't know what your specific setup is, but you're right that the ATF has issued several rulings regarding AR pistol brace-type attachments that involve intent. But I was specifically referring to Sharkbite's comment regarding using a carbine buffer tube in an AR pistol build, which is perfectly legal in and of itself.
 

TMD

New member
Quote:
And for $50 more than what that silly brace cost you can SBR it unless you live in one of the commie states.

I thought about that--but I really like the smaller package--plus I can legally hunt with it with a full magazine holding more than 5 rounds, whereas I could not with an SBR or rifle--so that sorta clinched it for me.

The Sig brace or any of the intimation ones do not make for a smaller package than a SBR. Be it a pistol or carbine buffer tube, they are both the same length. With a SBR the butt stock can be collapsed till flush with the end of the buffer tube. The SIG brace may slide on just as far but no further and it weighs about 4x as much as a vanilla butt stock.
 

peggysue

Moderator
I live in a Commie State that does not allow SBRs. Shockwave Braces (Only $50.) for me. I haveone on a AR pistol. I do have a fixed SB-15 on a 11" AK pistol it however those are too bulky and pricy IMHO



Before I got staining right..showing folding bracket.
 

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stagpanther

New member
Quote:
Quote:
And for $50 more than what that silly brace cost you can SBR it unless you live in one of the commie states.

I thought about that--but I really like the smaller package--plus I can legally hunt with it with a full magazine holding more than 5 rounds, whereas I could not with an SBR or rifle--so that sorta clinched it for me.
The Sig brace or any of the intimation ones do not make for a smaller package than a SBR. Be it a pistol or carbine buffer tube, they are both the same length. With a SBR the butt stock can be collapsed till flush with the end of the buffer tube. The SIG brace may slide on just as far but no further and it weighs about 4x as much as a vanilla butt stock.
I really don't get these kind of "I don't like em because I think you would be better off with something else" type of arguments. To me they smack of gun control.

I have one, like it, and use it legally--what else matters?

I'll repeat one last time why I prefer the pistol over the SBR FOR WHERE I LIVE

First--it's a pistol. That designation confers certain conceal and transport advatages that an SBR or rifle do not. Second, again, for where I live, no auto-loading magazine weapon EXCEPT A PISTOL WITH BARREL LENGTH UNDER 8" may have a magazine that supports a capacity of more than 5 rounds to be used during hunting season. Again, that may mean little or nothing to someone else--but so what.
 
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tirod

Moderator
IN MO: An AR pistol can have any length, no stock. I built mine with a 10.5" barrel with a 25 1/2" overall length. I cannot ever use a forward grip legally - no issue with that, it's not a major accuracy producer anyway. I used a pistol buffer tube to sidestep any issues.

Under current laws - and they have historically been getting better, not worse in MO and nationwide - I can treat it just the same as any other pistol. That means CCW, having it loaded concealed in the front seat, etc. Some regard for time and place should be common sense, as a lot of that is really academic. But the point is, I don't need an annual renewal to possess the pistol when crossing state lines, and under MO law as a CCW carrier I can also Open Carry it. No, I wouldn't take it to a downtown Chipotles in KC. An SBR might be illegal as the "R" in SBR means "Rifle" and there are very specific laws pertaining to them. Words have meaning.

I don't have to apply for a trust, spend $200 for an investigation, and make my pistol permanently classed a rifle. I can use that pistol in another build, if the laws were changed, and keep it (and if they ban AR's entirely I'd wait for the dust to clear before saying what the results would be. Nobody knows the future.)

The AR pistol is no less lethal than an SBR, and for what it does, no less accurate, as it's largely used under 100m and can certainly hold onto an 18MOA target at those close ranges. Which is why I used mine for two seasons for MO deer, firearms and pistol. You can't use an SBR as a pistol limiting it to one and one only. I got extra days hunting - with a much more powerful weapon than a pistol caliber handgun, which means it's also more ethical in my way of thinking.

You don't need a brace to use it - and from what I have read in the "letter," it doesn't raise issues of the buffer being used as a stock - as is. The issue with ATF regulations is that they are considered law because Congress didn't want to be burdened with arguments over Constitutionality or near trivial technical discussions. There is a request for a complete copy of ALL ATF decisions from letters and questions, tho - about 30 file cabinets. And there is the danger of those acting as the ATF and telling you exactly what their deliberately confusing and unclear language means. The ATF rules isn't in the business of telling you what your freedoms are. They are in the business of enforcement. When the FIOA request is forced into compliance, there will be significant changes, and things will have to be cleared up.

As for their changing regs, be advised - based on the NFA of '34, there is now a bill to cut out the tax revenue collection on silencers and make them completely legal and Federally unregulated. This continues the trend we've seen in areas like CCW - from a few legal states to most having shall issue. Now many states permit the use of silencers hunting, which is something largely required in many European countries, with sales at the hardware store level.

Better to exercise your freedoms - we didn't get from just a few states with CCW because we held back and wondered if the laws would change again. Same with the AR - there was an AWB, for the most part, the AR is now part and parcel of what we use as a hunting and sporting rifle. Just the same as all those milsurps our grand dads and fathers bought to hunt with in the 40's and 50's. My first rifle was an HK91 and I only hunted with it, too. Holding back only lets them win, build an AR pistol where legal and we all gain.
 

rickyrick

New member
I once thought the AR pistol a silly endeavor, a fad that would soon pass. Didn't think it was practical or particularly useful.

Something last year sparked my interest to build one. I can't recall for sure, but I'm thinking the kicker was being legal to conceal loaded, since WA prohibits having a loaded rifle in a car.

So I built it, thinking it would be a fun toy that I'd soon tire of and build the parts into another rifle.
Boy, was I wrong, it was no joke. It performed great and could be shot effectively. I never measured groups but I could hit stationary clays at 100 fairly regularly, milk jugs no problem at all.
Plus it was fun, really fun... Like tickling baby monkeys fun.
 

stagpanther

New member
Good explanation tirod--better explained than I ever could. There's one important piece of the puzzle you left out that is also related to the gradual lifting of licensing for silencers: The brace was initially developed and ruled on as an assistive device based on the ADA (Americans with Disability Act) which is quite powerful and far-reaching (I once worked on Government compliance to ADA myself).

Pressure is being brought to bear on easing access to silencers/suppressors for the same access to handicap reasons. I can understand this since my hearing has definitely suffered as a result of my prolonged use of firearms and continued use of un-silenced guns poses a cumulatively increasing loss of hearing threat to me--and many others.
 

kcub

New member
Why is the Sig brace $150? Seems overpriced, not much to it. The Shockwave worries me. Reading reviews some have had them break as you have a metal screw, the plastic brace, and the tube having to stand up against recoil, bumps and what have you. Maybe for casual range use.

I'm thinking the buffer tube only.

Is that all there is? No other competition?

For an AK the shop was suggesting a folding tube adapter and a cheekpiece (really they are suggesting just going SBR and get it like you want it). But that sounds like you might be on shaky legal ground.
 

TMD

New member
Why is the Sig brace $150?

Because when it came to market there was ZERO competition which meant that they could charge what ever the market would bear. Also at the time NFA was less popular and most people didn't know how easy it was to register a SBR.
 

stagpanther

New member
True--it's nothing more than a hunk of hardened rubber with two Velcro straps as far as I can tell. Sig also makes a smaller blade model brace. It's like the bump-fire stock when it first came out--I remember seeing it as high as around $250 or so at first--now they can be found for around $100
 

Yung.gunr

New member
I have a M85np AK pattern pistol in 5.56 that takes AR mags, I love that gun, TONS of fun. I thought about putting the folder with the AR pistol tube and the Sig brace on it. I wasn't sure if I wanted to to do the Sig AR brace, the Century AK brace or SBR it. I waited and waited and then the ATF kept changing their arbitrary and capricious minds so I decided to just put a sling on it. With a good sling you can push the pistol out and do a cheek weld on the sling that lines up the sights great and makes it much more steady than just two hands.

As far as time, money, convenience and practicality are concerned I like the sling on it. Sure if I could SBR it without having to deal with the ATF I would, but it works great as is.
 

Doc Intrepid

New member
I own an AR pistol that was custom-built for motorcycle touring. It fits in the saddlebag of a Harley. The entire barrel + gas tube/fore-stock is removable courtesy of Dolos.

https://www.coppercustom.com/shop/parts-kits/dolos-ar15-quick-change-barrel-system/

The brace is a lightweight Blade by Shockwave.

http://shockwavetechnologies.com/site/?page_id=1970

The thing is awesome: accurate out to 200 meters and beyond with a Trijicon MRO red dot optic.

https://www.trijicon.com/na_en/products/product1.php?id=MRO

It was built for motorcycle touring and overnights in dubious accommodations. It's a niche gun, that doesn't pretend to be all things. But one thing you need to remember:

SBRs cannot be (legally) removed from the state in which they were made. You can apply via letter to the BATF to take them out of state for a specified period of time (several days) to a specified location, such as a match or a show, and receive written permission from the BATF. Other than that, don't consider your SBR a 'truck gun' if your truck happens to be headed out of state.

An AR Pistol, in contrast, is a pistol. There are no constraints on taking it out of the state in which it was made. So if you're looking for something you plan to carry in a truck or on a bike, an SBR may not be your first choice for obvious reasons.

Guns are tools. They're best used for specific purposes, and some purposes are pretty specific. AR pistols are never going to be as useful over broad ranges of different requirements, but for very specific purposes they'll work quite well. Borrow one from a buddy and see for yourself before you make up your mind.

JMHO. YMMV.
 

FrankenMauser

New member
SBRs cannot be (legally) removed from the state in which they were made. You can apply via letter to the BATF to take them out of state for a specified period of time (several days) to a specified location, with written permission from the BATF. Other than that, don't consider your SBR a 'truck gun' if your truck happens to be headed out of state.
NFA guys deal with this stuff all the time.

It isn't nearly as complicated or overbearing as you're portraying.

Once a year, they file their travel forms for any state that they anticipate possibly visiting, and they're pretty much good to go for the rest of the year (regardless of the dates and addresses actually filed, in most cases).
The only exceptions are states and/or municipalities in which the NFA item is prohibited. Taking an SBR to a prohibited place is, of course, a crime.
 

Doc Intrepid

New member
FrankenMauser said:
"NFA guys deal with this stuff all the time.

It isn't nearly as complicated or overbearing as you're portraying.

Once a year, they file their travel forms for any state that they anticipate possibly visiting, and they're pretty much good to go for the rest of the year (regardless of the dates and addresses actually filed, in most cases).
The only exceptions are states and/or municipalities in which the NFA item is prohibited. Taking an SBR to a prohibited place is, of course, a crime."

And you're being glib.

People such as those you reference above travel to known destinations along a pre-arranged route.

Someone touring on a Harley may have no known itinerary, or only a vague plan of the general area they want to visit. Their plans may change on a whim, moving from one state to several others instead, based on weather or other variables.

They certainly don't want to constrain themselves, while touring, only to destinations available in paperwork they filed with the BATF "once a year".

If that's how you operate, great.

That isn't how everyone operates.
 

rickyrick

New member
I spend quite a bit of time in Bigfoot country. I'm not saying Bigfoot exists or not.... But 60 or so rounds of American whitetail might get me out of a wrestling match with him... Just saying. I can toss an AR pistol in my pack and be covered with a concealed pistol permit....

I've considered the brace seriously, but for the cost... I could buy another barrel or bcg.
 

kcub

New member
For 150 I'd just as soon pay 50 more and have a proper SBR. I'm not going anywhere, I've got a cat to feed.
 

peggysue

Moderator
Shockwave is only $50 and great. No Federal paperwork or registration. And again not all states in the USA allow SBR. :D
 

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