I call BS...

[Ike666]

Daekar,

If you want a scientific explanation of what and how various projectiles operate in the body, I'd refer you to Gunshot Wounds: Practical Aspects of Firearms, Ballistics, and Forensic Techniques by Vicent DiMaio. While the text is about the damage done to humans it does a good job of explaining the internal ballistics of an expanding projectile in living tissue.

There are two key aspects of the damage done - the wound channel (the actual hole made by the bullet) and the wound cavity (the surrounding tissues destroyed by hydrostatic shock). An expanding bullet generates a substantially larger hydrostatic shock wave than does a pointed projectile. This hydrostatic shock wave, and not the projectile itself, disrupts the surrounding tissue. An FMJ makes a very small wound cavity (save for key-holing or tumbling)

Try an experiment next time you're in the tub with your rubber ducky. Hit the water with the flat of your hand and then poke your hand straight into the water fingers first with as close to the same force as you can. The flat hand strike approximates the energy transfer of the expanded projectile and the knife edge hand the FMJ.

Now, with bullets, especially rifle bullets, they are traveling at such high relative velocities that it doesn't take much expansion to create a devastating wound cavity with very moderate expansion.

The FMJ projectile, that enters ballistically true takes advantage of the natural elasticity of living tissue (the difference between poking an icepick and a hammer through an elastic membrane). When the wound channel collapses back it will almost seal itself in some instances with a sharp projectile. The huge cavitation caused by the blunt projectile leaves a permanent cavity behind.

I am not a hunter either, and would not pretend to actually know the answer to the most humane way to take game animals. I suspect as many die from shock as the actual wound damage, but I don't really know.

 

[bullspotter]

As a bowhunter AND a gun hunter for more then 20 years, I have taken lots of large game, deer and elk with both.

As far as gun kills, a very large # of the animals ive taken have dropped on the spot, Pry due to shock from energy transfer. The ones that didnt drop right away, didnt go far at all if they were hit good, they either bled out fast or ran out of air (lung shot) and were done in pretty fast. I will admit i had a few bad shots that ended up in some tracking, and a second or 3rd finishing shot. And even worse, a small number i never recoverd. This happens. I have always used what i thought were good hunting bullets, not FMJ ammo, I found that some bullets that work great on deer out of my 270, didnt work so well on larger animals. So their were adjustments to fix the issue.

Archery hunting is NOT the same, I assure you that an arrow dose not leave just a small hole though and animal. An arrow with a sharp braodhead will not have any shock to it, IT IS made to cause major bleeding, period. The statement that hunting with a FMJ is like an archery kill in the way it leaves a small wound channel is silly and tells me the person has no clue on how LEATHEL an arrow really is......... End of story, ive seen all the wounds, and blood trails from arrow shot animals FIRST HAND....

As far as gun shot and archery shot animals that i have had to track, (most not more then 100 yards) MOST of the the best blood trails hands down were from arrows, something about a big triangle shaped hole made from razor blades seems to make the blood leave the animal faster, i dont know why, its just what i have delt with.

 

[Come and take it.]

To kill with intent is known as murder.

this is why soldiers are taught to aim for the knees or arms instead of center mass.... Not

To kill with need (defending life, defending country) is not murder. expanding or fragmenting bullets will put the bad guy out of the fight with one shot instead of a magazine or belt full of ammo. read up on the battle of mogadishu and you will understand why fmj is a problem. In one instance a ranger emptied his s.a.w. trying to shoot a somali who dragged himself riddled with holes behind a tree and continued fighting.

Keep in mind that the world govts also wanted to ban the shotgun from combat. All other countries agreed except the us.

not even sure whether the hague was concerned with undue suffering (fmj leads to a prolonged and painful death as compared to a quicker one from expanding bullets) or that they wanted a dead soldier to be identifiable for his loved ones.

 

[Daekar]

Bullspotter - Thank you for sharing your experience with us, in particular the part about archery. That just didn't sound right to me... I couldn't imagine that arrows were as ineffective as people are making out FMJ to be. If they were, I'm not sure that people would bother with them. Maybe they were thinking of trying to kill with a field-point? Now I'm sure that would be a disaster.

Ike666, thank you for the reference, I will see if I can get a hold of a copy of that book. I have always wanted to know the how and why of things, otherwise they just don't make sense to me. I have trouble just accepting things without a rhyme or reason. Handy sometimes and obnoxious other times!

 

[Panfisher]

I"ll toss in my two cents worth. Having shot prairie dogs with a .223 loaded with 55 gr. FMJ bullets and the same rifle with 55 grain. Hornady SXSP, night and day difference. Saw several prairie dogs crawling around after hits with FMJ no such happenings with the SXSP's. Rifles are completely different than handguns due to the velocity differences.

Archery hunting, the difference is that with an FMJ bullet say a .30 cal you have a .308 diameter hole in and through the other side, with a broadhead you should have a minimum of 1.25 inch diameter "wound" and with an expanding type broadhead even larger, more like the difference between a field point and a broadhead.

The notion of a tumbling bullet in most rifles is bogus. The reason bullets tumble has nothing to do with it being a FMJ and more to due with length/weight and twist rate in the rifling, all else being equal a long heavy bullet takes more sping to stabilize it. And the old stories of shooting someone/something with a tumbline (keyholing) bullet in the belly button and it coming out their throat is also bogus, unless they have repealed the laws of physics, a bullet or other object doesn't simply change directions inside a body, it will generall try to pass through in a more or less straight line.

Handgun bullets, honestly I don't think that an expanding or FMJ make nearly as much difference. There are some that expand much easier and rapidly and do create a better wound channel to let blood out etc. There is an old saying about three ways to stop/kill something, destroy the nervous system, (i.e. brain, spinal system etc.), blood loss resulting in brain death (bigger holes bleed out faster), or shoot them into a state of structural collapse by breaking large bones etc.

A FMJ bullet through the brain will not kill any more or less deader (??) than a HP through the same brain, dead is dead. An FMJ through both lungs versus a expanding bullet through the lungs is a different game, falls into the faster blood loss through tissue damage category. Again handguns are a different critter, there is a school of thought (and I largely agree), that a heavy hard cast lead bullet with a flat nose with penetrate better and cause more tissue damage than an HP due to the tissue disruption and penetration.

 

[chadstrickland]

I use fmj all the time when hunting..and never had a deer hog run off....mainly because I shoot them in the head...and really..if u cannot hit a 4 inch target at 300 yards with a 223 what are u doing with a rifle to begin with....my average groups are 3'' maybe 3.5 max

 

[Longdayjake]

I use fmj all the time when hunting..and never had a deer hog run off....mainly because I shoot them in the head...and really..if u cannot hit a 4 inch target at 300 yards with a 223 what are u doing with a rifle to begin with....my average groups are 3'' maybe 3.5 max

Wow, you sure are amazing. I am now flogging myself and throwing all my .223s in an industrial trash compactor.

 

[Rifleman 173]

I shot this wild pig with my sniper rifle in Viet Nam while on a patrol using 7.62 NATO National Match ball ammo. It took one round to drop and stop this animal. Ball ammo can be effective when proper shot placement is done. And the meat, fresh meat, tasted delicious for quite a number of us.

 

[LSnSC]

Broadheads kill by blood loss, not hydrostatic shock. A field point will kill a deer eventually. Will you be able to find him before he goes to waste? Probably not.
That's the same with FMJ bullets. They will kill game, but will you be able to find it before its goes to waste. Probably not.
Hunting IS NOT paper punching or target practice. Everything changes in the field. All this BS about 300 yd head shots is a load of crap and I hope the posters are just spouting off and not actually that stupid. Ive seen deer and pigs running around with their jaws shot off because some jackass over estimated his abilities. You're taking an animals life and you owe to that animal to kill it as quickly and humanely as possible, thus FMJ bullets and head shots are a poor choice.

 

[davlandrum]

I use fmj all the time when hunting..and never had a deer hog run off....mainly because I shoot them in the head...and really..if u cannot hit a 4 inch target at 300 yards with a 223 what are u doing with a rifle to begin with....my average groups are 3'' maybe 3.5 max

Seriously :barf::barf::barf::barf:

Thanks to those that explained the error of the archery reference - I almost blew a gasket until I saw others had already explained it.

 

[StrongSideArmsInc]

Broadheads kill by blood loss

Correct, waitting for an animal to bleed out. I honestly don't care how an animal is killed, as long as it is not wasted. But, if you are concerned about an animal sufferring, then an arrow is about the most inhumane way to kill an animal. A well placed shot with an FMJ bullet is more humane than a deer bleeding out from a well placed heart archery shot.

I have personally killed animals with spears, knifes, dogs, guns and bows. It doesn't bother me hearing an animal suffer. It all apart of the circle, and survial of the fittest. The only thing that burns me up is someone who is wasteful with their game. Working with Fish and Game part time, I have seen more deer wasted by a bow/arrow then any other. It is not uncommon when we go out to count deer to see some with arrows in their head, legs, and infected wounds. I have seen some go a year before dying.
Most old timers hunting with FMJs, know what there doing. Doesn't make it right, but shot placement is everything. Perfect shot placement with a bow, very rarely means an instant kill. The archers must be a good woodsman and tracker, not just a good shot.

If you wanna see inhumane, watch the Discovery channel with a pride of lions tearing apart a little baby gazel. It may be dishearting to some to watch, but a kill is a kill. One thing you will never see an animal do is waste a kill.

What ever your choice of media is, perfect it, learn it, and know it well. It is your responability to make sure that animal didn't die without purpose.

Just my two cents!

 

[bullspotter]

An arrow shot deer will bleed out faster then a rifle shot deer more then 50% of the time. depends on the hit. An arrow wont do the damage to bone like a bullet from a high power rifle. I have blood tracked many many animals, some i shot and others hunting freinds and people in my group shot, Their is better blood trails most of the time from arrow struck animals unless the shot was really poor. A properly hit deer or elk, Good 2 lung or heart shot, will kill that animal in les then 10-15 seconds, the last 2 elk ive archey shot, were on the ground with their head flatlined in 10 seconds or less and didnt go more then 25-30 yards, So i dont think bow hunting is inhumane. Thier are however alot of hunters, both archey and rifle that take to far of shots, are not good enough shots, shoot the animal in the wrong place, use a caliber to small or wrong bullet for the game hunted, shoot animals in the wrong place, or angle.... and on and on and on.......... to me taking poor shots on game is inhumane. Not hunting with a bow.

 

[catzor]

These arguments are all very, very weak

1) A "hunting" bullet expands and makes a bigger hole. Yeah, they expand a bit, but not nearly enough to create that much more significant a wound passage. When you're talking about a hole, is there much difference between .30" and 0.45" if you missed the vitals anyway

You said it yourself, it is more. How much more damage it does is up for debate, but it certainly is more, and as we all know, the quicker the kill, the more ethical the hunt.

2) A "hunting" bullet won't pass through the animal like a FMJ will. Definitely BS. I don't even hunt anything but varmints, but the hunters that I socialize with (and there are a lot of deer hunters here in Virginia!) all commonly report complete entry/exit wounds. In fact, my wife's cousin shot her first deer last year, with a 243Win, and she got entry-exit pattern.

A bullet in flight has a certain momentum (mass * velocity). This momentum is associated with a scientifically measurable amount of energy. As the animal is hit with the bullet, the bullet's momentum is used up as it passes through the animal's various tissues. If a bullet fully penetrates, that means it still has momentum and energy that was not "deposited" within the animal. Since a expanding bullet is, by definition, larger, it will require more energy to force its way all the way through, meaning overpenetration (and the associated "lost energy" is less likely) is less of a concern. Sure, both can overpenetrate, but that means you are using too much gun. All else being equal, an expanding bullet will dump all its energy into the target more efficiently,while an fmj will tend to exit that target and retain some of its energy in flight.

3) A "hunting" bullet does more damage, killing the animal quickly. If this was true, you wouldn't hear constant reports about having to track or losing an animal after its been hit. In fact, there is reason to believe that FMJ does more damage, because it will bounce around the body when it hits bone, or turn sideways upon entry, causing a wound channel as wide as it is long.

This is just stupid. It's better, not magic. As I explained in my response to #2, the expanding bullet is capable of dumping more energy into a given target before exiting than an FMJ, making a kill more likely. Sure, a heart shot with either will kill quickly and a foot shot with either probably won't kill at all, but if it's marginal, the expanding bullet will do more damage more quickly than the fmj. None of the other conditions you mentioned can be planned, and thus, are useless to the hunter. You cannot count on the luck of a bullet turning sideways to make your kill.

 

[cordesr1]

"I suppose this all comes down to what you consider humane. cordesr1 pointed out that a FMJ kill is like an archery kill, and that it is inhumane. Does that mean that the legions of bowhunters out there, from the Native Americans to somebody's uncle Joe that loves compound bows, are all inhumane monsters? Something doesn't add up here. Either cordesr1's comparison is invalid, or something else has to shift. It is absurd to suggest that hunting with a bow inherently makes someone irresponsible and cruel - otherwise we are forced to condemn every primitive society in human history."

I am a bowhunter also, i should correct my first statement. It would be like shooting a deer or elk with a field point. the broadhead does what an expanding bullet does. Mass tissue devistation.

 

[700sage]

The answer to this post lies in the reason we create expanding bullets. To find out what effect this has on game we have to take the bullet expansion to the extreme. I can think of no better caliber to discuss this than the .22lr. It is something we all have and most of us have shot squirrel and/or prarie dogs with it. My personal experience is recent with a prarie dog hunt. My uncle carred a .22lr and so did I. We both were making good shots at around 100 yards. We did notice a big difference though. When he hit the dogs they would crawl off into a hole and die. When I shot the dogs they would fall over dead instantly. I was no more accurate than he was. We found that the difference was in the bullet being shot. I was shooting CCI stingers and he was shooting conventional subsonic ammo. His bullet was essentially a twenty two caliber hunk of lead blasting a clean hole right through the animals. Mine was a hollowpoint that expanded rapidly and only exited on a few occasions. Because of this my bullets were actually transferring more energy into the target and killing them quicker.

The same thing happens with hunting bullets only not so extreme. When hunting large game bullet expansion is desired because it will displace more energy and leave a bigger wound channel than a FMJ type bullet. Sure you can try and count on a FMJ round to tumble but you're rolling the dice. With a hunting bullet you are shooting something that is designed to expand. The best example of this I can give is the elk I shot last year. The bullet was a Nosler Accubond 180 grain .30 caliber. I shot it out of a .300WSM and hit a near perfect double lung shot. The bullet entered the animal at .30 caliber. The recovered bullet in the off side skin was .62 caliber. It had displaced all of it's almost two tons of energy into the animal and obliterated the internals. The animals lungs looked like red jello. Now what would a 180 grain FMJ bullet have done on this animal with nearly two tons of energy behind the bullet? Any guesses? The answer is that it would have punched a nice .30 caliber hole through the animal. The lungs would have had a wound on them and eventually filled with blood but they wouldn't have devastated the animal like the Accubond did. The FMJ bullet would have exited at almost the exact same caliber as when it entered. On an elk a .30 caliber hole can close quickly because of the thickness of the skin. The elk would have died from the FMJ shot but he would have gone a lot further than the 15 feet that my elk did. I'm sure if I had taken that shot with a FMJ I'd have been chasing that elk for hundreds of yards before I found it.

So which is more humane? I'll leave you to decide for yourself but for me I'll always use CCI stingers to hunt prarie dogs with a .22lr from now on.

 

[700sage]

As for the comparison to a bow, completely invalid. A bow cuts a wound channel with a blade. A bullet displaces energy to create most of it's wound channel. A FMJ bullet doesn't expand and displace energy well which is why it will almost always pass through leaving a clean small hole. An arrow's goal is to leave as big a cut through the animal as you can so that it will bleed out as fast as possible. If that were the goal with FMJ why would anyone shoot .223? Doesn't make sense does it?

 

[Buzzcook]

Just like to point out that the folks who make the regulations requiring expanding bullets for deer hunting, probably were not arbitrary idiots seeking to deprive hunters of superior bullets.

The people making expanding bullets are also probably not idiots selling inferior products at premium prices.

 

[uncyboo]

Search YouTube for "204 Ruger gopher hunting". That's pretty good "evidence" of the damage an expanding bullet can do.

 

[m17s_guy]

a simple law of physics answers a big portion of the OP..

energy cannot be created nor destroyed. only stored or transferred.

so any bullet that passes through its intended target CANNOT be doing maximum damage!

hunters use hollow point bullets be cause they cause more damage through the mushrooming action.

nobody ever says it feels like i got hit by a smart car....

 

[lockedcj7]

Try this test:

Go fill two milk jugs with water and put the caps on. Set them out at 100 yds. Shoot one with M2 ball and shoot the other one with a cheap soft point.

Come back and let us know which one is vastly superior in transferring its energy to the target.