I call BS...

[Daekar]

... on the idea that hunting with FMJ is inhumane. I'll tell you why, but before I do let me say this: It's illegal in some places to hunt with FMJ bullets, I already know this. It's not everywhere, like Virginia (.23 caliber or larger with 350lbs-ft. ME) so please keep your lawyers in their holsters.

1) A "hunting" bullet expands and makes a bigger hole. Yeah, they expand a bit, but not nearly enough to create that much more significant a wound passage. When you're talking about a hole, is there much difference between .30" and 0.45" if you missed the vitals anyway?

2) A "hunting" bullet won't pass through the animal like a FMJ will. Definitely BS. I don't even hunt anything but varmints, but the hunters that I socialize with (and there are a lot of deer hunters here in Virginia!) all commonly report complete entry/exit wounds. In fact, my wife's cousin shot her first deer last year, with a 243Win, and she got entry-exit pattern.

3) A "hunting" bullet does more damage, killing the animal quickly. If this was true, you wouldn't hear constant reports about having to track or losing an animal after its been hit. In fact, there is reason to believe that FMJ does more damage, because it will bounce around the body when it hits bone, or turn sideways upon entry, causing a wound channel as wide as it is long.

Out of all the photos I've seen and ballistic tests I've looked at, there is nothing that makes me believe that anything is more important than shot placement. If you hit a game animal in the right place, it's going to die, period. If you don't, it's going to walk away no matter how much money you spent on your ammo.

Discuss. If you have pictures, statistics, ballistic analyses, or other objective evidence to present, please share it! The above argument makes sense to me based on my understanding of physics and common sense, but I am willing to be persuaded with evidence.

EDIT: Mods, If this belongs in the hunting forum, please move it!

 

[M.O.A.]

the fmj do not expand at all but they are more accurite but they deflect easyer too

 

[bullspotter]

so what do you think about the energy transfer from the bullet to the animal when hit?

LOL you hunt varments and talk to pry a extreamly small % of deer hunters in virgina...... and conclude the a fmj is just as effective or more so as a hunting type projectile........

Look at all the companys and the HUGE seletion of hunting type bullets made today, they are for a reason, If the FMJ was the ultimat killing bullet, their would not be a need for anything else would their????

 

[brmfan]

Why is this thread not in the hunting forum? Anyway... With the availability of non-fmj ammo out there, why in the (**) would you ever consider using a fmj in the first place!!??
It is irresponsible... pure and simple. Try actually field dressing a large animal that you have just shot with an expanding hunting bullet before 'calling bs'. There is a reason why folks use them... the damage caused in a very localized area (ie vitals) is incredible. The point is to NOT destroy good meat, which means NOT having the bullet "bounce around"!! And you want folks who actually hunt large game, many of them for decades, to prove to you that you are wrong!?? I'm speechless....

 

[trooper3385]

You said earlier that you only hunt groundhogs, skunks, and possums. I'm sure the fmj's will work just as good as anything for those. For bigger animals, you better stick to hunting bullets that expand. Look at some of the military tests. The military doesn't even like to use fmj's, but they have to due to NATO requirements.

 

[5RWill]

False statement is false

 

[M.O.A.]

i think it a geneva thing not nato

and that being said the fmj are lease likely to kill you slowly then a hunting bullet. if not hit well that is

 

[Daekar]

Bullspotter: I use personal experience, common sense, and my education to formulate ideas about the world, just like everyone else.

I think that energy transfer to target is important if we're talking about achieving hydroshock in a handgun that causes brain hemorrhaging with a chest shot. However, if deer hunters relied on energy transfer for kills, hitting the vitals wouldn't be so important.

I believe the hunting bullets are made for several reasons: they are necessary thanks to game laws, they can be marginally better in some circumstances, and they make the ammunition manufacturers money.

 

[Daekar]

brmfan: I appreciate you taking the time to respond, I knew I would get emotional responses given the entrenched nature of the ideas at hand.

You said that the damage to the vitals of a game animal when shot in the appropriate location with an expanding round is "incredible" in "a very localized area"... meaning it really messes things up in a small spot. Please explain to one who has not had the opportunity to field-dress large game the difference between a fast-moving mushroom-shaped blob of metal passing through the lungs and a fast-moving pointed cylinder of metal passing through the lungs.

If we are assuming a poor hit in a non-vital area, how is a mushroom-shaped blob going to do more damage than a pointy cylinder?

 

[FrankenMauser]

If FMJs are so effective.... Are you hunting your varmints with them?


Until you hunt big game with both types of bullets, your opinion means nothing.

 

[5RWill]

On a non sarcastic note i've shot small game with a 55gr FMJ out to 200yds and watched the game walk around bleeding to death, also shot pest less than 100yds again didn't die instantly took "too" long IMO. My friend beside me stood making one hit instant kills with a 55gr soft point.

Let me put in more perspective you ever accidently gut shot a deer with a FMJ and find it? On some deer it's hard enough to spot blood let alone find the deer that has been gut shot.

 

[Daekar]

Blackops: Thank you for a more serious response, I appreciate it.

In the scenario you described, I have two questions:
1) Why were you using such a small (I imagine it was .223) bullet on deer-sized game?
2) Did you both hit the animals in the same place, from the same angle, and from the same range? Or was that just the varmints?

EDIT: Nevermind, it's too late to type straight. Please ignore #1!

EDIT EDIT: Out of curiousity, what was the target animal? Groundhog? Coyote?

 

[5RWill]

I was shooting geese (they were in our wheat field) with the .223. And no but it's near impossible to replicated a shot on an animal at the exact angle/spot.

 

[brmfan]

It all boils down to more blood out of the system= more oxygen out of the system = faster and more humane kill. Bigger bullet = more damage (again... in the vitals) = greater blood loss. Case in point... I shot a buck recently with the 165 gameking from the front through the right armpit. Everything north of the stomach was turned to jelly, the heart and lungs obliterated, and all the blood was out of the system. It only took about 20 seconds to die once the bullet connected. Most important was the intestines and bowel were not hit which can ruin most of the meat. Had it been a fmj the outcome would have been a waste of the animal.
As to my 'emotional' response, you seem to have a very detached perspective concerning hunting. As for me, watching an animal die after I just shot it is humbling, and demands respect for that animal which means taking it as quickly and cleanly as possible.
Now that I think about it, a friend shot one in the rear end (non-vital area) and the mushroom effect of the bullet still caused enough blood loss that it only ran about 150 yards before collapsing. It also left one heck of a blood trail. There is no way that would have happened with a fmj.

 

[big al hunter]

If you want to see the difference between FMJ and expanding bullets shoot a few coyotes with each. The difference is easy to see without field dressing. All of the deer hunting loads with expanding bullets for 243 and up will cause an exit wound on a coyote you can put your fist into. A FMJ will leave an exit wound the same size as the bullet to maybe 2 times the diameter of the bullet. The expansion of the bullet causes far more destruction of the soft tissues than a FMJ. Yes a FMJ will kill, however it is not as fast or efficient as an expanding bullet when the shooter does their job correctly with either.

The animals that you mentioned being lost is due to improper bullet placement or the bullet failed to expand. Having to track an animal is nearly always the way it will go. Even with the best bullet hitting in exactly the right spot the majority of animals run for several yards. I have shot many deer and elk and witnessed many others being shot and most of the time the bullet passed all the way through deer and about half the time on elk. I have only seen 1 deer fall at the impact of the bullet and one elk. That is about 10 percent for my experience and even less for other hunters I know.

There is a valid reason to make FMJ illegal for big game hunting and your post is a prime example of that reason. Uninformed people doing what should not be done to animals that don't deserve a slow painful death.

The devistating wound of an expanding bullet is what led to the FMJ restriction imposed by the Geneva Convention. It was an effort to cause less death and nasty wounds in war. IMO FMJ is only for war and paper targets. If I had to chose being shot by an expanding or FMJ you can bet it will be FMJ. That way I will have time to shoot back!

 

[Big Bill]

Yes a FMJ will kill, however it is not as fast or efficient as an expanding bullet when the shooter does their job correctly with either.

Which is why I just don' understand why the military uses FMJ ammo. You'd think a "humane kill" would be important to all the bleeding heart liberal humanatarians out there in fairy land.

 

[Daekar]

brmfan and big al:

Yes, I attempt to have a detached perspective when approaching what I consider to be a question of physics and fact: Does an expanding projectile deal more damage to a target animal in such a way that it dies quicker? The answer to that is quite apart from emotional involvement. Do I want to see animals suffer? Good Lord no. I don't like killing anything, even mice (Spiders can die, they creep me out in quite an irrational way), and I don't do it unless it is necessary. Groundhogs, skunks, and possums die because they pose a risk to livestock and destroy gardens. If I didn't care, I would've just used FMJ on animals and not posted about it.

So... we have evidence that expanding bullets do more damage. Why? Are we utilizing hydrostatic shock as in high velocity handgun cartridges? If we are, why do we not observe damage from the pressure wave that propagates to other parts of the body? How is it that a bullet that expands to twice its diameter generates an exit cavity many times its size, but a bullet that exits sideways doesn't?

 

[M.O.A.]

yes its call the mortal wound channel witch the expanding bullet has a greater wound channel than the fmj even if the fmj turns sideways and stays that way it still does not have the dia. that a full exspanded softpoint or hollowpoint has and the shock from that wound channel is what kills so quick



p.s. and its been proven that its higher speeds that make the fmj tumble not hitting bone thats why the mil. slow the 5.56 down

 

[mnhntr]

I have shot a number of my neighbors cats with 55gr fmj 5.56 rds and it FUBARS them better then any hunting bullet. That being said there is a difference between cats and deer. The millitary uses 5.56 fmj rds because you kill one, and take one out of the fight, you wound one, and take 2-3 out of the fight. FMJ rds are designed to seriously wound humans, not kill immediately. They also use them because they go through flack vests, and other barriers easier.

 

[big al hunter]

Am I taking this correctly, You are playing devils advocate?

Yes we are utilizing the hydrostatic shock that also occurs in high velocity handguns. The difference here is that the velocities are much higher and therefore create even more hydrostatic shock than the handgun bullets. It may be that the shock wave does travel to other parts of the body but I have never performed a necropsy to determine if it had.

The velocity of the projectile is not the only factor that determines hydrostatic shock and the accompaniing distruction. Perhaps you should write a letter to Hornady and ask their design engineers to explain it.