How should citizens be allowed to carry a handgun?

[MeekAndMild]

I had to think about this a bit. On the one hand our county sheriff funds some of his important programs with money from pistol permits but on the other hand a civil right is a civil right. We have made a good bit of progress in the last 50 years so that we don't prevent citizens from eating at public lunch counters or make them pay heavy poll taxes so why should we allow some jurisdictions to overly tax the CCWs?

There is also the politeness factor. There is a difference between polite open carry and in-your-face brandishing; as Heinlein said, "An armed society is a polite society".

In the end I had to vote for legal full open/concealed carry without licenses, but with the following reservation: The police should have the right to run a criminal check on anybody who is carrying in public and other citizens should have the right to expect impeccable politeness and nonaggression from all who carry ... with a tacit rule that bullies will not be tolerated.

 

[Shane Tuttle]

Read the thread to some degree....check.
Weighed others opinions..check.

Alright. NOW, I'm ready for my daily beating after a word from your friendly, neighborly jackass of a member:

I haven't voted yet. Don't know where to place my check mark. I'm willing to admit that I my opinion has been influenced based on our society as it is today compared to back in the day.

I'm leaning towards licensing open and concealed carry. My main reason is that bearing firearms in public has been slowly phased out of the norm of our society since the 1800's. It's a sticker shock to so many people these days that are exposed to someone carrying that isn't LE. Here's the way I think it should be done. Bear with me.

1. Continue the progression of converting states to SHALL issue. NOT may issue. I think the state has to prove to you that you aren't within your right to the 2A, not the other way around.

2. License fees are $25. $5 goes to your county to pay the processing fee and the 2 minutes it takes for the clerk to perform a background check. If you aren't a criminal/wife beater/etc., then $20 gets put into an account of some sort to pay for a public function such as firearms instruction free to the public. This account is to be protected from allocation for other purposes.

3. The "permit" is good for, say, 3 to 5 years. If you're still residing in the same area and are still a law abiding citizen when renewing, then the $5 fee is waived. If the $20 is put to good use and seeing results, then make the other $20 fee a donation at the option of the person. Otherwise, you've contributed to your local area as providing a safer community and should be entitled a waiver.

4. If there's a less than 1% crime rate produced by permit holders over a period of 10 years, then a move to abolish permits permenantly should be enacted.

I believe if the community you're in is eased into the culture of having firearms around like it should it won't be an issue in the future. It's a long and gradual process to restore our rights. But, I think it's worth it.

I know my ideas are a pipe dream to some and it may include an infringment of the rights we already should have. However, I'm looking at the long run. Like it or not, we have to win over the opposition without shoving it in their faces. At the same time, we are to continue to hold our ground and improve our natural way of life.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

The police should have the right to run a criminal check on anybody who is carrying in public

Do you really think that is practical? After being stopped a few dozen times, you might change your mind. Then there is the whole privacy issue. It would be like allowing the police to stop and search everyone carrying a backpack because it may contain a bomb.

 

[12GaugeShuggoth]

Open and concealed carry, freely by all. The bad guy who is going to shoot you will have a gun either way, so you might as well be allowed shoot back.

 

[Cerick]

Tuttle8 pretty much has it.

For those against the licensing, as long as it doesnt cost over lets say 40 bucks in total, is it that much of a pain to go take a class once in your life, then qualify every 5 years? Really? I mean if it makes you safer on the streets, even if its only mentally, knowing that the other people around you carrying at least know what they are doing. I lived in FL and have had conversations with people that carried and 2 of them took out their guns to show me what their carry gun was after I had asked. Both of them showed poor safety habits one of them even having the muzzle sweep my torso! The other one was a retired cop too!

We hear too often that sadly someone has been a victim of a drive by shooting or another type of shooting that was an innocent bystander, aka not the intended target. Now while almost all of those victims are people shot by criminals with "no training or spray and pray tactics", I dont know what makes anyone think that a law abiding citizen with no training will be able to shoot any more accurately than a criminal with no training. Innocent people would be at risk just the same, if the same number of shootings occured involving criminals was the same number as law abiding persons.

 

[MeekAndMild]

Do you really think that is practical? After being stopped a few dozen times, you might change your mind.

No, I'd carry concealed like I normally do with my pistol permit. Besides if everyone carried open they'd probably only do background checks on people they had probable cause to check...like people who were being rude, bullying or strange acting...before the other citizens took care of the problem. You've not read much Heinlein I presume? I'd recommend reading his stories in the order they were published rather than tackling his later stuff too soon otherwise it will confuse you.

 

[Kaboom]

Concealed or open without any permit. There will be a few whackos and complete idiots killed but things will smooth out rather quickly.

 

[Dangerwing]

My 2 cents

All the jibber-jabber about "Its a right!!" is silliness. Many people have compared it to the right to free speech. Can you walk into a theater in a yell "fire"? Can you call your ex and threaten to put a bomb in his (her) car? No! Unfortunately, there are enough idiots in this country that ALL rights have to be outlined, defined, and regulated. Its a fact of life. It may suck, but its still a fact of life. Heck, even our most basic right - the right to life - has exceptions - abortion and the death penalty.

I feel there does need to be a basic licence and I would go as far as to include some required safety training. When a gun is carried safely, you have a better chance of being injured in a car accident than by that gun, but if it is carried unsafely, you put not only yourself at risk, but also those around you. I'm all for a person's right to risk his or her own butt (ie I'm against seatbelt and helmet laws) but I DO NOT believe you should have the right to risk someone ELSE'S butt! I think our founding fathers had intended that we keep and bare arms safely, and just figured we would have to common sense to figure that out.

Before I'm completely flamed, let me say these things

I support the 2A and the RTKABA.
I am a member of the NRA.
I opose any regulation of wepons based on type, function, or appearence.
I CCW on a regular basis.
I served for our coutry for 14 months in Iraq as a member of the 101st Airborne.

 

[mav88]

carry without a permit..might mean that criminals and civilians would be packing..and more shootouts will occur..it is our right..but i think they place the license thing that way people who have "clean backgrounds" are the only ones allowed to carry..and criminals/gangbangers who are buying have ak's off the street can get 3-15 years in prison if caught with a firearm w/out a permit.


allowing anybody to carry would be like in the wild wild west movies...everybody packing..and settle their disputes with a quick draw gun battle

 

[Cerick]

If open carry was allowed WITHOUT a license it would be illegal or wrongful for a cop to stop someone that looked like this to check if their gun was legal or not.

who was carrying lets say a desert eagle or somthing on their hip with their shorts as long as their pants, while throwing up gang signs, otherwise it would be "racial profiling"

Yes I am exaggerating and not trying to be racist or advocate racial profiling but, you have to have some way to regulate ccw. With licensing, all a cop would have to do is ask for the license and if provided, end of story.

 

[ZeSpectre]

carry without a permit..might mean that criminals and civilians would be packing..and more shootouts will occur

1) Criminals don't care about law. They carry anyway, already, right now.
2) Several states have carry (some don't even have a permit requirement) and there has been a complete lack of "blood running in the streets".

This is why I get so amused and frustrated with the timid "but someone might do...." nature of most of these responses.

In Virginia if you can legally buy a gun, you can open carry. No required license, fee, training, nada.

This is not theory or "what might happen", this is fact, in the real world.

There are other states that have even less stricture and you can open or concealed carry. These states have been like that for YEARS if not DECADES and the fears espoused here HAVE NOT HAPPENED!

The criminals have, of course, done as they pleased
The average citizens of this country have shown, with stunning rare exception, to be responsible and uninterested in "settling every dispute with a gun" when given unrestricted freedom on that topic.

The laboratory of the real world has already answered this question and yet folks would rather cling to fear and buy into the rhetoric of the anti-types because of some perceived "additional safety". :barf:

 

[teeroux]

Its a right just like speech and religion. You should never have to purchase a license for any right.


When you allow your right to become licensed and regulated, they are no longer rights they are privelages. IMO

 

[Jeff B.]

Concealed with permit.

Open without.

Jeff B.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...Its a right just like speech and religion. You should never have to purchase a license for any right...

But actually, you often must; and courts have upheld some such requirements.

For example, while the First Amendment guarantees the rights of speech and assembly, one can be required to obtain a permit in order to have a public assembly or parade. As a condition of obtaining such permit, one may be required to demonstrate that adequate provision has been made for crowd control, security and sanitation.

And if you want to build or remodel a church, you may still be required to first obtain the normal building permits.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

one can be required to obtain a permit in order to have a public assembly or parade.

And if I decide to have a machinegun shoot ala Knob Creek, I'll get a permit. To tote my gun, like my voice, I'll do so without restriction.

 

[starshooter231]

We should be able to carry any safe way we want without a permit.

starshooter231

 

[akr]

Concealed and open carry without a license would be a quick way to get guns banned for sure. I disagree with the majority on that one.

 

[ZeSpectre]

Concealed and open carry without a license would be a quick way to get guns banned for sure. I disagree with the majority on that one.

We're probably just going to have to agree to disagree on that. My own experience is that places with unlicensed open and/or concealed carry are not having gun-banning problems. Hiding guns away, acting furtive and secretive like they are some perversity to be ashamed of, now THAT sets a bad precedent and will give the antis power.

 

[PTK]

No license, concealed or open both legal. Being in VT for a while really opened my eyes to how easy this whole CCW issue is to fix - no license or permit needed and crime PLUMMETS as more people carry a gun "just in case".

 

[akr]

Concealed and open carry without a license would be a quick way to get guns banned for sure. I disagree with the majority on that one.

We're probably just going to have to agree to disagree on that. My own experience is that places with unlicensed open and/or concealed carry are not having gun-banning problems. Hiding guns away, acting furtive and secretive like they are some perversity to be ashamed of, now THAT sets a bad precedent and will give the antis power.

I just don't think it is a good idea for every idiot (and there are plenty) out there to not be licensed to carry, and to carry openly.