How Much Energy

comn-cents

New member
Old Grump "an illusion because the direction change puts the ball up into your field of vision instead of moving away from you and moving towards the water"

Actually this is not the case. When the ball bounces it is moved up into your line of vision. When it hits water it actually glides/slides along the water before it comes up and when it comes up it isn't as high as it would be if it was bounced.
I am comparing it to a car hydro planning. I have often done this for fun, in a safe area and the speeds sometimes increases.
 

KLRANGL

New member
Does anyone else remember 'Superballs'? I don't think they sell them anymore.

But... I do remember dropping one from 3rd floor balcony onto concrete and the thing bounced back to at least the 5th floor
Well, physically that is impossible. The only way for it to bounce higher than its starting point was if it had kinetic energy added to its initial potential energy (IE thrown down instead of dropped). You simply cant get away from Kinetic/Potential energy relationships.

Quote from wiki
SuperBalls (originally "Super Ball") is an example of a bouncy ball invented by Norman Stingley, and manufactured by Wham-O in 1965. It is an extremely elastic ball made of Zectron, which contains the synthetic rubber polymer polybutadiene, vulcanized with sulfur at a temperature of 165 °C (329 °F) and at a pressure of 80 standard atmospheres (1,200 psi).[1] The Super Ball has a very high coefficient of restitution. Dropped from shoulder level, a Super Ball will bounce nearly all the way back.
 

Dragon55

New member
Yeah it was probably thrown. Dern things were fun though. I may try to find one next time I'm shopping for one of my nephews.
 

Mello2u

New member
Part of the confusion over this is how a solid object interacts with the three different states of matter. gaseous, liquid, and solid

Regardless here is a cool gif:

Bullet_wall_highspeed.gif
 

BobbyT

New member
Dragon55 there is absolutely no way your ball was dropped from the 3rd floor and bounced to the 5th. Even if it were made of the most idealized substances in the world this wouldn't happen--it has a given amount of potential energy at its starting height, turns that energy into kinetic energy as it falls, and turns it back into potential energy as it rebounds (plus losses for air resistance and internal friction as it bounces). It will never even bounce to its original height, unless you THREW it, giving it more energy to start with.

comn-cents there is absolutely no way your car ever GAINED speed while hydroplaning. It would be constantly losing speed, regardless of how it feels; there's nothing magic about sliding. Likewise the ball never picks up speed skipping over the water, it loses a ton.

Water might have less friction than pavement, and make you feel like you're going "fast", but it's still more friction than zero, and only takes away energy.
 

Bud Helms

Senior Member
comn-cents there is absolutely no way your car ever GAINED speed while hydroplaning. It would be constantly losing speed, regardless of how it feels; there's nothing magic about sliding.

See there we go with the all encompassing statements. On ice, slightly down hill? As a teenager in Montana I experienced this.

I think I agree with the remainder of your post, BobbyT.
 

Dragon55

New member
Yeah thanx Bobby for restating the obvious that I had already admitted to....

I even said.... What has been said I know in my logical mind is correct but................. in my original post.

Then ... Yeah it was probably thrown. Dern things were fun though. in the next post.

Sometimes physics is cruel to human senses and selective memories from long ago.
 

BobbyT

New member
Ok Bud, fair enough, given a slow start speed and a steep hill. But more realistically, the transition from normal pavement drag to the lower drag of water/ice gives you the feel of "speeding up" when you're really just decelerating at a slower rate (otherwise, with a big sheet of water/ice you'd go flying down the road instead of sliding to a gradual stop).
 

Brian Pfleuger

Moderator Emeritus
fiddletown said:
The energy of any moving object is proportional to the square of the velocity and its mass. At the moment a bullet leaves the muzzle it has its highest velocity, and therefore its greatest kinetic energy (i. e., energy of motion).

The bullet begins loosing speed the instant it is no longer being accelerated by the powder charge but that actually occurs just in front of the muzzle. It has been shown that the gases that escape the barrel just after the bullet exits actually expand fast enough to add as much as several 10s of fps to the bullet.
 

Uncle Billy

New member
More physics, yawn...

Sliding downhill converts potential energy (the energy the car has because it's higher at the start of the slide than what it is at the end- its "position") into kinetic energy (i.e. its motion- it's going faster at the bottom of the hill than at the top). Like a roller coaster, you've traded the energy of position (higher to lower, so more potential energy at the top of the hill than at the bottom) for the energy of motion (going faster at the bottom).

In physics, it's momentum (mass times velocity) that's conserved, unless an external force is applied. You can change momentum only by changing how much mass an object has, or how fast it's going.

By the way, that's how recoil works: Just as the bullet exits the muzzle the bullet and the gun have the same amount of momentum, but in opposite directions. The bullet has small mass and so is going much faster, the gun is way heavier and so goes much slower, in the opposite direction. Momentum is conserved- the sum of it all before the shot is fired is zero (no velocities) and so must add up to zero afterward. The MV for the bullet and MV for the gun are equal in magnitude but in opposite directions, so they add up to zero because velocity is plus in one direction and negative in the opposite direction- it's a "vector".

When a bullet strikes something its momentum (or the momentum of all of its pieces if it fragments) is reduced by an external force, which is applied to it by the target. it's in providing this force that a target is damaged. The change in momentum an object undergoes is calculated by multiplying the force on it by the length of time that force is present. This is called "impulse" in physics. If the target is soft or fragile, providing this force will damage it; if the target is hard it may not- see the gif mello2u posted, where a huge force is required because it's applied only for as long as the bullet is pushing on the wall, a very short time. This is why air bags help reduce impact injuries- they spread out the time the force is applied, which reduces the force, hopefully to a level below that which would produce serious injury.

Energy is the more common term when the effects of bullets are measured. In physics, energy can be changed by "work", which has a very narrow meaning in physics. The amount of kinetic energy an object has is equal to 1/2 its mass times the square of its velocity. A bullet has high kinetic energy (lots of velocity); reducing that energy is done in the target by applying a force in a direction opposite that of the velocity, for some measured distance. The product of force times the distance through which it acts (how "work" is calculated in physics) has to equal the kinetic energy if the bullet is to stop. That's why hollow points and soft nosed bullets are used- they spread out so that a larger force is required which keeps the distance short, and inside the target so all of the bullet's energy is used up in the target (its end velocity is zero) which maximizes the damage it does. A bullet that doesn't expand doesn't meet a lot of force inside the target because it's still streamlined, so the distance to stop it is longer, often far enough that the bullet passes all the way through the target. This means the target didn't get all the bullet's energy because the bullet still has some velocity left after exiting.

It's in providing this force that a target is damaged- sending a high speed projectile at something transfers energy to it which it must deal with, and that can be very destructive.

The recoil energy of the gun is much less than the muzzle energy of the bullet because energy depends on the SQUARE of velocity and there's a huge difference between the velocity of the bullet and the gun after the shot. In absorbing the recoil, both the force (how hard it hits you) and the distance it moves (where's the muzzle pointing after it's all over) determine the recoil experience. If the gun is light (a handgun) then its recoil velocity will be higher than the same cartridge in a rifle.
 

Old Grump

Member in memoriam
Physics class, first day discussing elasticity. Teacher held up a rubber ball like you get on those paddle ball kits and a steel ball the same diameter and asked us which one was more elastic. We were unanimously wrong in declaring the rubber ball more elastic. Proof is in the pudding. He dropped both balls from 3' with a volunteer holding a yardstick to measure bounce. The steel ball bounced higher, nearly up to the top of the yardstick, just missed it by a couple of inches. Elasticity was the ability to return to its original shape not the amount of deformation it could take. The steel ball returned to its original shape with more force than the rubber ball did so it transmitted more of its energy back into motion than the rubber ball did. What seems to be obvious often isn't. Then he did the experiment with a wooden croquet ball, a pool ball, and a hard rubber ball. Would have been more but the door opened and an irate teacher from the 2nd floor and the vice principal were there requesting he find a quieter experiment. Probably shouldn't have done so many repeats but you have to repeat to get good data.

Only way your hydroplaning car could gain speed is if it was going down hill and the force of gravity combined with the lubrication overcame the friction. More likely the gain in speed is an illusion caused by fear caused by utter lack of control of the vehicle. The damp spot in your seat was no illusion but a natural reaction to perceived danger. How would I know that...oh yeah, somebody told me.
 

Uncle Billy

New member
We used to do an experiment where the students, in 12 groups of 2, would roll a steel ball down a curved ramp and let it fly horizontally off their bench onto the floor, then compute how fast it had to have been going to land where it did. Lots of steel balls on the floor produced the same results as Old Grump's teacher produced- downstairs teacher came upstairs with fire in his eye.

The difference in how far one ball or another will rebound when dropped has to do with how much of the energy stored in their defamation is recoverable and how much is lost to the ball's internal friction of its molecules, which becomes a tiny amount of heat. A superball returns almost all of the kinetic energy it stored when it hit the floor- its "coefficient of restitution" is nearly equal to one.

When you drop a ball from a certain height, it will fall, losing potential energy as it gets lower and lower, but it gaining kinetic energy because it's going faster and faster. If the floor is the reference point, just before it hits the floor it has zero potential energy remaining and all the P.E. it had before it was dropped is now kinetic energy. The process that happens while it's touching the floor as it bounces is that the force of the floor on the ball causes the ball to flex which slows it down. When the ball finally stops, it is distorted at the max and all the kinetic energy it had is stored in the distortion, much like a loaded spring- it's in a different form of potential energy. Next the ball begins to unflex, pushing on the floor which accelerates it upwards. The instant that the ball isn't touching the floor any longer, the force of its unflexing has exchanged the potential energy stored in its flex for kinetic energy. The ball is in its original shape and has kinetic energy again. If its coefficient of restitution is nearly equal to one, it wil have been accelerated to a velocity very near the velocity it hit the floor with. That means it has nearly the same kinetic energy as it had before it hit. Gravity slows it down as it rises, but by rising it's developing potential energy. When it stops at the top of its bounce, it's nearly as high as it was dropped from because it has nearly the same potential energy as it had before it was dropped. A ball that doesn't return all the energy that gets stored in it when it hits the floor has lost some of that energy in its internal structure in the form of heat, and its coefficient of restitution is less than one. Thus it has less energy available to send it upwards and so doesn't get as high as it was dropped from.

Ok, this isn't much about guns, so if it disappears I'll have no complaints.
 

Bud Helms

Senior Member
Rule #3. No personal attacks. Name-calling comes under that rule.

And I will bet a dollar to your donut, comn-cents, that you completely misunderstood Old Grump's intent.
 

comn-cents

New member
Bud Helms "And I will bet a dollar to your donut, comn-cents, that you completely misunderstood Old Grump's intent."

Thanks for calling me dumb Bud I appreciate it.

Ya he said I ****** myself because I was scarred. It wasn't personal up to that point...
 

Bud Helms

Senior Member
Well, I'm going to let Old Grump chime in on what he meant. In the mean time ... chill. I don't really think as many people are trying to pick on you as you seem to think. Me included.
 
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