How Much Energy

comn-cents

New member
So something just hit me while looking at muzzle velocity & muzzle energy charts.
This is how manufactures seem to list the performance of a load.
But do things change when they hit a target? I know they do in many ways, I'm not looking for someone to tell me they slow down, etc.
I was just wondering if a bullet speeds up or creates more energy, when it hits a person. You can hit a racquetball- tennis ball- goofball on water and it seems to accelerate, do you think that a bullet does the something? I've always assumed that it would slow down. But does it? I figure if it is a hollow-point then it fills with whatever it hits and starts slowing down, but what if it skips off bone or something else. I know this seems like a dumb question but is there any merit to it? Any of you scientific types in here give this a thought and let me know what you think.
This thought just made me look at ammo in a different light. Thanks
 

Brian Pfleuger

Moderator Emeritus
Energy can not increase on impact. Direction may change but energy can not increase.

There can very complex discussions about how energy is lost on impact but it essentially comes down to friction in one form or another.

Think about this, whatever "solid" object a bullet hits is just the last in a long line of things it's been hitting since the instant you pulled the trigger.... Air, and no one would argue that air would make a bullet go faster.... Except the "air" behind it in the barrel.
 

comn-cents

New member
peetzakilla I understand what you are saying, I get it.
But if you are swinging a baseball bat it the air, or if you swing it and make contact with something. Are those two different action creating the same ft-lb’s of energy or a different kind of ft-lb’s of enenrgy? I'm not trying to be difficult in anyway, bullet energy and velocity have always been interesting to me, but I've never compared them to other things that create energy or velocity. It's the whip or baseball bat analogy, which hurts more, creates more damage?
 

Brian Pfleuger

Moderator Emeritus
They are the same "kind" of energy.

In fact, the bat is not doing anything to the air that it doesn't do to the ball. The difference is that the molecules of the ball are attached and so must travel together. The air simply separates. However, the energy it takes to move a given mass of air is identical to the energy it takes to move the equal mass of a ball.

Is that what you're asking?
 

comn-cents

New member
peetzakilla I think that I am just asking a question I've never thought of before. I've just always read about bullet energy and never really thought of what happens as it hits a body (i know, hopefully it is transfers the energy into the body) but how, does it spread out-through-up, does it double it's energy because it's hitting mass? Does it lose half and transfers the rest? Does it just transfer all its energy, depending on bullet design?
 

Dragon55

New member
It will transfer all of it's energy irregardless of bullet design.

If it stops in the body all of it's energy will be dissipated within the body. Even the heat accumulated from the air friction will eventually be unloaded to the body until the projectile reaches the same temperature as the body.

If it passes through the body whatever else it hits will receive the rest of the energy.....

except for what is still theoretically available from using the projectile as a fuel in a fire.
 

comn-cents

New member
Dragon55 If it passes through the body whatever else it hits will receive the rest of the energy.....
Ya don't think you are getting what I am asking. I realize that eventually, all the energy will be transferred. ;)

Thanks though
 

Slugthrower

New member
There is more than one aspect to ballistics. You have the external, internal and terminal performance to consider and it can get quite information intensive. Ballistics charts commonly seen are external ballistics information and don't tell the whole story.

All bullets once they enter a more dense meduim than the air in which they were traveling will slow down very quickly. When that bullet begins to transition it's construction will play a significant part in the transfer of energy and the rate of that transfer. What ever happens to be the method of inparting kinetic energy will be a factor in it's energy level on impact. A person swinging a bat is pushing harder and harder till impact for the most part. So there may be acceleration till impact. A bullet is propelled by the gases produced from the propellant and it happens so fast that the bullet begins slowing upon exit of the barrel. Also the pressure of the gas lessens greatly as there is no longer constriction of it behind the bullet upon exit. What matters is that the projectile leaves with enough velocity to do what it was intended to do in the barrel length you are using. Bullet construction is what will dictate it's perfomance in target as well as initial velocity at the time of impact. Some bullets will deform and distribute energy at a faster rate than others, some may not and will pass though the target, wasting remaining energy in the next medium. Then there are some that will not hold together long enough and will waste energy on the surface of the target.

The question comes down to how tough the target is, the bullet being used and how much energy will it take to get the bullet deep enough to strike vital organs and/or cause enough bleeding to incapacitate the target. No one would shoot an tiger with a .22 rimfire. It won't go deep enough and will not make the animal bleed out fast enough. On the other hand you are not going to shoot rabbits with 12 ga slugs either, since the inpact force will shred the animal and leave little meat to harvest. Striking that perfect balance of perfomance is what makes a good cartridge. It must do what it was intended to do and not be so over powered to be useless for it's purpose.

Don't get too wrapped up in velocity alone, though it is a good indicator of capabilty. Be concerned with the momentum and construction of the projectile itself. It is very hard to tell what a bullet will do in a particular medium till it is tested in one. This is the reason they shoot ballistic gel under controlled conditions for simulation purposes. They also have standards of penetration to get effects on the type of target they intend the round to be used on. There are so many variables in the perfomance of a cartridge it can take a good while to find the one that may be considered an optimum performer. Especially if your selection isn't based on a set of standards and it merely chosen willy nilly at whim.

If you shot a styrofoam bullet out of a .44 magum it won't impart much energy to the target as the bullet will be robbed of energy from friction of atmosphere very rapidly and a major lack of momentum. A bullet that breaks up too easliy will suffer a similar problem. It won't penetrate enough. This is why people are told quite regular that bird shot in a shotgun is for birds and to use buck shot for people. The mass of each bullet, along with intial velocity, will dictate the momentum and penetration aspects of a selected caliber.

Ballistics tables, while a good thing to gain an idea of performance from, are not the only information you will want to base a decision of caliber on. It is as if you read a book on good materials to build a bridge and haven't the knowledge to build one. Math without comprehension of the physics and the engineering knowledge to make it useful is a form of going through the motions without purpose. No ballistic chart is going to give you a clue to bullet performance simply by looking at the numbers. This is why you could have .357 Magnum out perform a .44 Magnum on a particular target under a certain set of circumstances. It may be counter intuitive, but it can be the case quite often.

In general a HP bullet is going to be better for self defence against people. Solid hardened bullets will be best against thick hides in things like a bear. Provided the bullet is big enough and energy level high enough. Thankfully most ammuntion manufacturers have the science already worked out and you just have to know what they made the ammunition for.

Similar to that bridge metaphor. You don't go running around thinking of what the bridge materials were used and what metals and concrete blends were used. You just accept it was designed to allow safe traversing and use. Same thing applies to ammunition in firearms. When you start choosing bullets , powders, primers, cartridge cases and all those components to make your own ammuntion, then it helps to have a grasp of what those things can and cannot do very well. You in effect become the bridge engineer, albeit not needing any where near as much education. Unless you make your own smokeless gun powders or bullets, then you are going need to be a chemist. ;)
 

Bud Helms

Senior Member
All of the energy in a bullet may not be transferred, but rest assured the energy is conserved, not lost. One of the standard physics problems in school is determining where all the energy ends up when a mass with velocity (maybe under acceleration, maybe not) contacts another mass at rest.

Within some problem domain, the amount of energy remains constant and energy is neither created nor destroyed. Energy can be converted from one form to another (potential energy can be converted to kinetic energy) but the total energy within the domain remains fixed. (Conservation of Energy - NASA GRC)

ThinkQuest.org: The Law of Conservation of Energy
 

Brian Pfleuger

Moderator Emeritus
Ah, yes I see what you're asking. Where does it go....

As Bud said, all the energy is conserved. If you could actually follow every quanta of energy then you'd find that some of it is converted to heat, some of it remains kinetic energy and causes motion in the object that was impacted, some of it is used to "damage" the bullet, some of it makes sound (which is actually kinetic energy transferred to the air). If the bullet stops in the target then, by definition, all of the energy it had at the instant of impact is either SOMEWHERE inside the target or made noise, "WHOP!". If the bullet exits the target then the energy difference between the moment of impact and the moment of exit is the precise amount of energy deposited into the target.
 

comn-cents

New member
Slugthrower Thanks for that great response, it is appreciated.

Bud Helms peetzakilla Thanks for your explanations as well, I enjoyed them.

I mentioned earlier that I am not new to guns and shooting. Like many of you I bought my first rifle at 18 26 years ago. I really enjoy learning new things and enjoy looking at things in a new light. Thanks for helping me do that..

Bud Helms peetzakilla sounds like the name of a detective novel:D
Carl
 

Frank Ettin

Administrator
The energy of any moving object is proportional to the square of the velocity and its mass. At the moment a bullet leaves the muzzle it has its highest velocity, and therefore its greatest kinetic energy (i. e., energy of motion).

As the bullet travels down range, it loses velocity due to air resistance. Some of its energy is used to perform work, i. e. moving the air out of the way. The air molecules the bullet pushes out of the way gain kinetic energy from the bullet as the the direction of movement and velocity of those air molecules is changed by the bullet pushing them out of the way. Some of its energy is converted to another form, i. e., through friction with the air. The work performed moving the air out of the way and the heat generated account for the loss of energy as a result of the bullet slowing down.

When the bullet hits the target it uses some or all of its remaining energy to move aside the molecules making up the target, thus part of the bullet's kinetic energy is transferred to the molecules of whatever the target is. Some of the bullet's energy is also converted to heat by friction with whatever material the target is made of.
 

BobbyT

New member
Regardless of design, it never speeds up upon impact. It can change direction, deform, etc but it either slows down or stops.

Your tennis ball doesn't ever speed up either, water or not.
 

Old Grump

Member in memoriam
I was just wondering if a bullet speeds up or creates more energy, when it hits a person. You can hit a racquetball- tennis ball- goofball on water and it seems to accelerate,
The ball lost energy and speed when it ricocheted off the water. The illusion of gained speed is jut that, an illusion because the direction change puts the ball up into your field of vision instead of moving away from you and moving towards the water. You cannot gain energy without a source of energy to transfer energy to the projectile and you cannot gain speed in flight without an infusion of energy.
 

Dragon55

New member
What has been said I know in my logical mind is correct but.........

Does anyone else remember 'Superballs'? I don't think they sell them anymore.

But... I do remember dropping one from 3rd floor balcony onto concrete and the thing bounced back to at least the 5th floor. ............... and my buddy hitting one with an old wooden baseball bat. We swear it was still going up when it cleared the centerfield fence which was 375ft away.
 
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