How many load data sources do you consult ?

FrankenMauser

New member
I consult as many sources as necessary to feel comfortable with the data.
For something like .270 Win, that might be one source.
For something like 7.35 Carcano, which requires digging through my "historic" reference library, I'm going to get every bit of data that I have.


Also, most of the Barnes data is calculated, not worked up in a lab and pressure-tested.
Barnes load data might as well start with the 'simulation' disclaimer.
CAUTION: The following post includes load data generated by calculation in QuickLOAD (QL) or Gordon Reloading Tool (GRT) software is based on particular powder lots, the assumption the primer is as mild as possible, and assumptions about component, chamber and gun geometry that may not correspond well to what you have. Such data should be approached by working up from published starting loads. USE THIS DATA AT YOUR OWN RISK. The user assumes any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information or information derived from it.
 

hounddawg

New member
According to the Barnes load data pages the .308 data was using
Case: Winchester Case Trim: 2.005”
Twist Rate: 1:12”
Primer: Federal 210
Barrel Length: 24” Barrel: Krieger

If it was simulated why would they list a band name for the barrel and primer?

Now as far as their bullet BC's are concerned I have some doubts, but the load data seems genuine. As I stated in a previous post I believe the load data is more lenient on the powder becasue it applies strictly to one bullet. Noslers for example covers two 175 gn HPBT's, five 180 gn Spitzers, and one 180 gn PPT

Berger, Sierra, Hornady etc are like Nosler. Different bullets profiles so they have to go with the most conservative. Next week I am going to work up to the 44.0 gn load and since I am also using Fed primers in a 24 inch aftermarket barrel and shooting in moderate temperatures the velocity should be close. Ambient temps, case volume and powder lot #s may cause some slight variations of course but it should be in the ballpark
 

603Country

New member
I use 2 or 3 reloading manuals usually. Mostly I shoot Nosler bullets, and have found that their recommended loads are usually very close to what I settle on. And I always have the latest Lyman book at hand.
 

ms6852

New member
I use the source data from each particular brand of bullet I use. If I am using Speer bullets, I use the Speer manual only, if it is a Hornady bullet I use only the Hornady manual and so on. I do not deviate from their source because they have done the testing already with different types of powders and primers. I make it simple for me.
 

kilotanker22

New member
Depends, Sometimes I can only find one or two sources for my cartridge, bullet and powder.

I use manuals from the following companies. Berger, Barnes, Hornady, Sierra, Hodgdon, and Nosler.

Of the sources listed above, Hodgdon and Hornady are the only two with data for the 300PRC. Berger and Nosler are the only two that list data for the 308, with BLC-(2) and 165 grain bullets.

Sierra is the only one that lists Power Pro Varmint as a choice in 6.5 Grendel with the bullets I use.
 

jmr40

New member
When you see a max load listed in a manual that doesn't necessarily mean that is the max safe load. It means that is as far as they tested that load. Another source may have used the same powder, bullet, primer, and case but pushed the limits farther and found it to still be safe.

All of my go-to loads have been "borrowed" from other shooters. I've found that if I hear that a lot of shooters are getting good results with 45-47 gr of powder X with bullet Y in 308 then I start looking at that load.

The 1st thing I do is to check data to confirm that 45-47 gr isn't over max. I then will back off that some and work up. In every case I've found good results somewhere between 45-47 gr with that bullet. I also use a chronograph to confirm muzzle velocity to ensure I'm not over pressure.
 
CAUTION: The following post (or a page linked to) includes or discusses loading data not covered by currently published sources of tested data for this cartridge (QuickLOAD or Gordon's Reloading Tool data is not professionally tested). USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assumes any liability for any damage or injury resulting from the use of this information.

A couple of things: One, Barnes Match Burners are not solid copper bullets. They are cup and core match bullets same as the other brands. This is on their website.

Two, in general, thanks to legal concerns, many places that develop loads by watching for pressure signs in production gun barrels (Speer for example) contract Alliant to do pressure testing or will borrow test barrels from others and hire a ballistic technician to do the tests to SAAMI standard methodology with their warmest loads to confirm they don't exceed SAAMI specs. Photos of Hornady's facility reveals they are now using strain gauges to pressure test in-house and are likely confirming with SAAMI standard equipment for their manual data later. It may take some years, though, before all that new information finds its way into the print manuals. It takes several years to refire everything for updating manuals and they don't do it all the time.

If you want to know how a load was tested for pressure, read the SAAMI standard. It includes the barrel length and the ambient temperature range. A sample of SAAMI standard reference loads will have been equilibrated to temperature with the ammunition to be tested. The condition is:

"Ammunition conditioning should be between 60° - 80°F (15.6° - 26.7°C)."

Any error that temperature being on the high or low side produces will be compensated for by first firing a sample of reference ammunition for comparison that has been conditioned the same way. In turn, reference ammunition is tested to a much tighter specification to determine its pressure value:

" {Test} Ammunition shall be conditioned for a minimum of 24 hours at 70° ± 2°F (21.1° ± 1.1°C) with a relative humidity of 60% ± 5% before firing."

I do not know if Barnes, specifically, is getting pressure testing done, but here's another factor: Have you ever noticed that when pressures are listed with load data (Hodgdon, Lyman, Western Powders data, for example) the maximum load given is never at the actual SAAMI MAP (Maximum Average {peak} Pressure)? That's because the manual authors, as Hodgdon explained in one of their manuals, are trying to allow a relatively wide range of powders to be used that aren't always the best choice for the cartridge and bullet combination, and their customers are relying on printed recipes when actual powder lots can vary some in burn rate. So, to have a safety margin for those things, they look at how much the peak pressure swings in their test, then lower the load so the highest peak they got won't exceed the SAAMI MAP number.

That's not what an ammunition manufacturer does. He loads for specific velocity performance and confirms that his ten-shot average peak pressure result does not exceed the SAAMI MAP and that his pressure variation does not exceed the SAAMI MEV (Maximum Extreme Variation) number for the cartridge. So the manufacturer's average may produce individual rounds that go above the MAP, as long as his MEV is good. This lets him load warmer than the handloading recipes and still keeps his product below the proof load range.

I bring up that last point, because I frankly don't know if Barnes is working like the other load data people with its peak pressures as limits or not. You'd have to call and ask, but this could explain some of the difference.

I note that even QuickLOAD and GRT think the pressure from the Barnes load will be high. They may also have had an oddball lot of powder. But nothing I see suggests their load is within SAAMI limits. I would avoid it and probably use my Pressure Trace instrument to see where it actually falls, pressure-wise.
 

hounddawg

New member
I still think you guys are overlooking the obvious. The Barnes data is for one bullet and one bullet only the 175 gn MatchBurner. I just looked at Hornady's 10th and while they do not have a 175 gn bullet they have a page fopr thier 178 - 180 gn bullets. ten different bullets from a 180 gn RNFB to the 178 ELDX all to be loaded from the same chart:eek:
 

AzShooter

New member
One is never enough. I have 5 reloading manuals that I've read from cover to cover. There is always something new to test.

Each bullet manufacturer has their own book and what appears to be a maximum charge in one doesn't make it so in another.

My favorite book is the Lyman Revolver & Pistol loading data.
 
The QuickLOAD and GRT data files both have the Barnes bullet, which I used in them. In my experience, because they use an ideal barrel, these programs tend toward underestimating pressure at a given velocity more often than the other way around. So when they say pressure is high, I take that as a serious caution to approach a load from well back. The plan to use the smallest load found for a 175 is wise.
 

hounddawg

New member
I ran the QL and GRT numbers. They both stopped short of the Barnes data but well above most sources. Anyway it is moot now, I plan on seeing if I can get a good load developed with IMR 4166 this week. The 2520 is too temperature unstable for a competition load in my opinion. I'll reserve it for throw and go .223 and 6.5 Grendel plinking loads
 

FrankenMauser

New member
QL greatly underestimates pressure and overestimates velocity for quite a few cartridges. It is bad enough that you cannot 'tune' the software to give more realistic estimates without creating bespoke powder files for each cartridge, and those are rarely good for more than one bullet/powder combination.

QL data is singlehandedly responsible for more popped .458 SOCOM cases and broken bolt lugs than any other factor (except absolute stupidity and idiocy).

Just because the computer gives you numbers doesn't mean they are good. ;)
 
I should mention that 2520 is also ignition stubborn. I tried it for one season under 168-grain MatchKings (this would have been about 1992, when I was using an M1A) and found that with the standard LR primers I was using at the time (Federal 210Ms—yeah, I know; ignorance was bliss) it made groups about 67% as big as I got out of the two stick powders I'd been using in the gun (IMR 4895 and Brigadier 3032). However, by felicity, I purchased a flash hole deburring tool in the middle of that year and started to experiment with deburring my cases. The groups cut right down to where the stick powders had been. In hindsight, moving to a magnum primer might have done the same thing, but either way, it needed as much ignition as it could get.
 

hounddawg

New member
Oddly enough both QL and GRT on my initial IMR 4166 data were both 100 FPS slower than what I chronoed at 12 feet out. Now I don't have much faith with optical or Labradar data being all that accurate since there are too many external factors that can affect them but they should be in the ballpark. Also that is a new barrel with less than 150 rounds down it so that could be a factor. Once I get the load tweaked I will use the Magnetospeed to get a accurate reading and compare them with the generated data
 
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