How do you carry your 1911?

[Magic]

Carry Condition

I am suprised to see that people carry in condition #2. I have heard of this but in all of my years shooting haven't actually met one. I do know of some who carry in Condition #3 but they carry all of thier guns that way. Cocked and Locked is the only way to go for me, the ability to do this is why I carry a 1911. As for the thumb safety being "wiped off" in the holster to me it is insignificant. The most important safety on all firearms isn't even in the gun, it is between your ears. If you don't put your finger on the trigger the gun will NOT fire. 'Nough said.

 

[denfoote]

I don't carry a 1911 but want to offer my 2 cents

I carry a BHP in condition one!!!!

 

[New_comer]

Not a 1911

But I carry my USP9 C&L.

 

[Deuce]

Correia, thanks for taking the time to explain your position to me.

You make the points I would have expected so I feel a little more assured about Cond 2.

I would like to address the points you've raised. Not to debate them, but simply to "give my side of the story".

1. I don't even think about racking the slide ... I, as well, have dry fired quite a bit by pulling the hammer back with my thumb ... it's never slipped and, I can't figure out how to pull the hammer back and keep the grip safety pushed in (all with one hand, which is the way I cock it) at the same time ... also, if the hammer did slip, the gun cannot possibly fire unless the grip safety is pushed in AND the trigger is pulled ... at least on all my 1911's ... if that were not the case, then I would be against it as well ... NO BOOM.

2. Any force against the hammer (while down) will not fire the gun unless the trigger is pulled (which cannot be accomplished unless the grip safety is pushed in) ... at least in my 1911's (actually, I think this is one of the first safeties in the 1911's ancestors that JMB put in ... but, I could be wrong). Most 1911's (if not all) have a safety which immobilizes the firing pin and can only be disengaged by pulling the trigger.

3. I never suggested that cocking a 1911 is faster than disengaging the thumb safety ... however, for those of us who do dry fire (quite a bit), we can still be pretty quick ... at least I can ... that's a compromise I'm willing to make.

4. I probably shouldn't have insinuated (sp?) anything about what JMB may or may not have intended. But, it bugs me when people talk about "the way is was designed to be" when they don't have the first clue what JMB was thinking. One other point though, you ever notice how all the Glock lovers bring up that "no safety means less chance of screwing up worrying about all those fancy levers"? As though, not having a safety were better for combat situations? After all, JMB was trying to get a military contract. Just more fuel for the fire I suppose.

5. I actually considered this ... which means, I wouldn't be too surprised if it were true. However, I still find it very hard to believe that nearly all manufacturers are putting on elongated hammers with a ribbed top (which obviously are only meant to be gripped better) for the sole purpose of allowing quicker/simpler dry-firing. Even if I called Colt and Kimber and they said that, I wouldn't believe 'em ... it's just a little too much. Interesting though, I've never heard this come up in the Glock vs. 1911 threads (ie. 1911 is better 'cause it allows for quicker/simpler dry-firing).

6. I've never even considered that ... it's never been an issue for me ... of course, I've got pretty big hands ... maybe it is an issue for other people.

7. I agree that "decocking a 1911 CAN be dangerous" ... certainly if attempted with only one hand. However, I have absolutely no worries with my method. Still, it's not something I'd teach someone else only because I can't know how much respect they have for the gun and how careful they'd be. If it were somebody who's owned and handled a 1911 for a few years, then I wouldn't be so hesitant. In the end, it's no more dangerous than remembering NOT to point a loaded gun at yourself and pull the trigger. Guns are dangerous ... as so many like to point out ... use what's between your ears.

8. I know it is very difficult for the 1911 thumb safety to be "bumped" off ... especially in a belly band. And, if it weren't for my ambi-safety, I might just carry Cond 1. But, for now, it's something I don't care to worry about. Remember, just because it's never happened to you, doesn't mean it'll never happen. If that sort of thinking were appropriate, only about .01% of us would be talking about this stuff. And, if it does get "bumped" off, you're not carrying a Glock ... most carry Glocks have a 5.5 lbs trigger with a longer trigger pull and a trigger safety (which actually does work quite well). If 1911's had a trigger safety (ala Glock), I probably wouldn't own one ('cause then it's not a 1911), but, I'd feel a lot safer about Cond 1 turning into Cond 0.

9. Re-holster Cond 1 if time or place is not appropriate for Cond 2 and change to Cond 2 when time permits. AND, while carrying Cond 1, I'd just be extra careful if I bump something or somebody bumps me.

How 'bout that ... between us, we have $0.04.

 

[King]

I want a 1911 badly. That's my next major acquisition.

You guys now have me wondering what the correct way to de-cock a 1911 is given the several comments indicated that it was somewhat dangerous. Obviously, there is a necessity to that that periodically.

What is the best and safest way to de-cock the 1911 if you need to do it?

Good dialog........thanks for the helpful info.

 

[kpw]

Deuce, Give this a try. Carry it C&L with the chamber empty for a while, go about your daily routine and see what happens. Unless your safety is poorly fit and loose, you probably won't see it disengage at all. Another option is a good thumb break holster. If the safeties were all to fail, the hammer is still blocked. High Noon makes a good one that I really like.

 

[Deuce]

King, I'll describe my method for ya.

But, make sure you practice this with the gun unloaded quite a few times before you try when loaded. The point is that you have to do everything you normally would to fire the gun, except, you have to block the hammer from striking the firing pin. If you don't block the hammer, the gun WILL fire and if your hand, finger, or whatever is close enough behind the hammer, the slide will make a mess of it.

USE CAUTION!

1. Hold pistol in strong hand with firing grip but with finger outside of trigger guard (grip safety should be pushed in).

2. Place end of weak-hand index finger vertically (so finger is in-line with grip of gun ... not from the side) into "V" between hammer and firing pin ... you should have it deep enough (as far as you can, actually) so that you can feel both the firing pin side and the hammer on your finger at the same time.

3. While keeping your finger in the "V" (you don't have to push hard, just keep it in there) pull the trigger and you should feel the hammer push a little more against your weak-hand index finger.

4. While keeping the trigger pulled, angle your finger slightly away from the hammer so the hammer follows your finger (about 1/16th of an inch).

5. Release the trigger and put your trigger finger back outside the trigger guard ... at this point, if you were to "slip", the hammer should fall to the half-cock position which will not fire the gun.

6. Place the thumb of your weak-hand on the back of the hammer while keeping your weak-hand index finger in the "V" and carefully work your finger out toward the side while keeping a grip on the hammer (you want to work towards having your index finger on one side of the hammer and your thumb on the other ... as opposed to front and back) and guide it down to the half-cock position.

7. Grab hold of the hammer with your index finger and thumb of your weak-hand ... pull the hammer back just a pinch to ensure you've got a good hold of it ... and pull the trigger and while holding the trigger pulled, guide the hammer down all the way.

If you're not comfortable doing it, then DON'T DO IT!

Unless you're wanting to carry Cond 2, you should never have to decock a semi-auto. If the hammer's back, and you want it down, but not for Cond 2, then just eject the mag and rack the slide to eject the chambered round ... look through the ejection port down through the grip (you should be able to see right thru) and ensure that no round is in the chamber ... release the slide ... point in a safe direction ... and just pull the trigger.

Be careful when choosing your 1911. If you get a really nice one, you'll go broke buying more and more 'cause you'll love 'em so much. You'll want one for CCW, one for the car, one for the bedroom, one for the bathroom, one for the living room, one for competition, a backup for competition, and one just for messin' around.

Good luck.

 

[Deuce]

kpw, thanks for the advice. I would expect that if I carried Cond 1 for 12 mos. I may never see the safety disengage. That doesn't mean it can't happen ... it might make me feel better about it, but, that still don't make it right. And, there's just something about a hi-ride thumb-break that I really don't care for. Besides, I still haven't figured out what's so evil about Cond 2 ... I feel like most guys here think I'm retarded and are trying their best to "help" me. If there's something REALLY wrong with Cond 2 on a 1911, then why don't they just tell me what it is and I'll see the error of my ways ... I'm more than willing to admit when I've made a mistake.

Thanks anyway.

 

[Correia]

Or instead of that complicated process I prefer: Safety on. Safety off. Done shooting. Safety on.

Deuce, maybe I can bump this up to $ .06.

We agree that working the safety is faster than thumb cocking. That alone would be enough for me.

Also for 99% of us, deactivating the safety will be more sure(less fumble prone) than thumbcocking.

I will disagree with you that most 1911s have some form of firing pin safety. In fact that is a relatively new invention in the life of the gun. Series 70s Colts didn't have them. The original Kimbers didn't have them. So a blow to the hammer of a condition 2 1911 on those guns might fire them.

Have you ever tried thumb cocking while the gun or your hands are wet? What about if you hands are slick with blood. (This is a defensive gun right?). Can you reliably thumb cock the gun while wrestling somebody and still keep a solid grip on your gun?

For me it is a choice between simple technique vs. complicated one.

If you are worried about knocking the safety off that much, even with an ambi. Have a smith alter it so it takes more pressure to off safe. Or ditch the extended safety and install a shorter GI style. Or get a holster like a G-Code which will cover the safety and hold it in place.

And I think you are just sticking to condition 2 just to spite the majority of us!

 

[Denny Hansen]

As over 80% of the folks responding have already answered...in the fashion that John Moses Browning designed it to be carried.

 

[King]

Thanks Deuce...good de-cock info for conditon 2 situations. Larry..good point on the merits of condition 1 vs condition 2.

Deuce..I'm trying to keep it simple on the 1911. A Colt .45ACP Mark IV, Series 80 will do. Finish is negotiable. Working the personal fiancial plan to acquire it. Guess that about $1000 to $1200 for a new one.

 

[CastleBravo]

Correia pretty much has summed it up. But here is my question: what is the advantage of Condition 2? I mean, aside from not having to see the scary cocked hammer?

It is slower and more awkward to bring into action than C&L, especially under pressure. You can belive otherwise, but you are wrong.

Instead of the illusory lack of safety of having to depend on a thumb safety... and grip safety... and not pulling the trigger.. when you don't want to shoot, you get the real unsafe practice of decocking a 1911. Finger slip = BANG.

On the other hand, if somehow the thumb safety gets knocked into the "off" position while carrying C&L ... NOTHING HAPPENS! The trigger is covered by the holster, and you still have to pull the trigger to cause the gun to fire.

 

[shy_man]

King, simplest way to decock your 1911 without any fear is:

1. Why not do the same way as when you are shooting at the range that is to clear your gun.

2. Let say, it was cocked and locked and you want to decock or empty chamber or go back to forward position. Then remove the magazine and simply off the manual safety (with your finger outside the trigger) then rack the slide to remove the bullets in the chamber and squeze the trigger. After that, return the magazine in normal position and your gun barrel is empty.

3. Other said, they decock just pulling backward the hammer with their thumb, but this is dangerous for me because it may slip it and directly hit the primer. it depends on how you're used and good to your gun. I prefer to do it as I mentioned in item 2.

 

[deputy tom]

When and if You need it You need it NOW! Therefore cocked and locked is the only way I've ever carried a 1911 during the last 28 years.tom.

 

[Correia]

I decided to put my $ .06 to a little informal test last night. Like I said before I’m a big advocate of C&L. But like I said, I dry fire a ton, so I’m really good at thumb cocking my 1911.

So last night I played around with drawing and getting the gun into action from condition 2. With practice I guess you could get to where it is only 1/2 a second slower but there is one major problem that I hadn’t thought of before.

The fastest draw stroke you can use from condition 2 is this. Reach down, grab the butt with your fingers, thumb goes to hammer, draw gun, stroking back hammer as you get your sight picture. Take firing grasp.

See the problem? As you do your draw stroke you only control the gun with your fingers, and not your thumb. The 1911 cannot fire until you move your thumb back to the correct side of the pistol (grip safety). This works fine if you are dryfiring at home, or plinking at the range, but if you are under stress it gets lots harder.

Now lets do a little test. I volunteer to be the C&L advocate for this if I can get a condition 2 person to take me up on it. We will take turns drawing from concealment with the other guy role playing an attacker. The attacker will get to strike the guy with the gun, (lets say a good swift kick to the stomach, or maybe a good strike to the arm). I’m willing to bet that I can still control my gun, remove the safety, and pull the trigger. I’m also going to guess that the person going from condition 2 will not be able to control his gun nearly as well with out his thumb around the grip. In fact what kind of retention drill can you do like this? I’m an opposable thumbed kind of mammal, and I intend to make good use of that evolutionary fact.

I found it was even faster from condition 2 to use your support thumb to cock the hammer as you take your firing grip. Problem with this is the same as the Israeli method (condition 3). You have to have the use of both hands. Which in a self defense situation you very well might not have. I sure would hate to be holding my 2 month old with my left arm, and need to pull my gun to defend against an attack. And if I’ve trained cocking the hammer with my support hand, what am I going to do? Drop my daughter? More likely your brain will go into vapor lock.

There I’m up to 8 cents. If I keep this up I’ll be able to buy one of those after dinner mints. J

 

[blikbok]

Not a 1911, but was given a CZ-clone to carry for a while. Condition 1, no grip saftey. It came with a holster that covered the back of the slide with a thumbbreak.

I never had an negligent discharge while trying to decock on the range, but I figured that I was more likely to have an accident while decocking than while carrying, so I ditched the idea of condition two, even on the double-action CZ.

 

[King]

Guess I get to practice condtion 1 and 2 (dry fire for now).

Acquired a really nice Colt 1911 Mark IV, Series 80(.45) Combat Elite today. It's used but very clean and tight.

I'm so happy........

 

[clem]

Mr. Browning designed it to be carried, in condition #1. That's how I carry mine.

 

[blades67]

How do you carry your 1911?

In a holster, or in my hand, or in a gun rug and sometimes in my range bag.



When carried for protection of self, or others, I carry it in Condition 1.

 

[Gewehr98]

Cocked & Locked, chamber loaded.

In a Milt Sparks Summer Special holster.