How Bad is S&W Hurting Now? (or are they?)
- Thread starter Chindo18Z
- Start date
Robert the41MagFan
New member
Smith & Wesson is not going to feel the pinch until next year. Most distributors and store fronts (the smart one's anyway) do most of their gun buying around Shot Show time. As of right now, it is business as usual and as long as Smith & Wesson does not change the way it does business, it will continue to be that way. They have done nothing to change the way they do business.
Robert
Robert
Also, the contracts of their three largest wholesalers/distributors are up this coming Dec-Jan. They have all stated they will not be renewing. Funny how the first large metro PD that has come forward and said "We'll only buy *&* from now on to show our support!", the Atlanta PD, has always issued *&* anyway. What're they gonna do, buy every officer another one? That seems to be the only public commitment *&* has recieved, and since it turns out to be a null set, *&* turns out to have lost everywhere and gained nowhere.
How the mighty have fallen...
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"..but never ever Fear. Fear is for the enemy. Fear and Bullets."
10mm: It's not the size of the Dawg in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!
[This message has been edited by Tamara (edited May 28, 2000).]
How the mighty have fallen...
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"..but never ever Fear. Fear is for the enemy. Fear and Bullets."
10mm: It's not the size of the Dawg in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!
[This message has been edited by Tamara (edited May 28, 2000).]
I have been thinking about this. Isn't this exactly what the anti's want? To see a gun maker "go away"? Now, I support the boycott as much as the next guy, but that is not our purpose. We, at least I want to see S&W refute the agreement, provoke the Evil Empire to slug it out in court, and expose them for the slimeball crooks that they are. I'm betting that with the legal setbacks that the Klinton Regime has had on this front, that they will not want to pursue it. This close to the election,Algore does not want his precious "Gun Safety" plank to be shot full of the kind of holes that a major court battle would inflict.
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BOYCOTT SMITH AND WESSON!!!
Defend the Constitution from the foreign threat!!!!
[This message has been edited by denfoote (edited May 28, 2000).]
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BOYCOTT SMITH AND WESSON!!!
Defend the Constitution from the foreign threat!!!!
[This message has been edited by denfoote (edited May 28, 2000).]
Gunslinger
Moderator
denfoot, think of it this way. Instead of thinking of it in terms of boycotting Smith & Wesson, think of it as supporting the other manufacturers.
This past week while at the Bianci Cup as a sponsor I happened by the Smith & Wesson "booth", where they had a display of the guns they currently offer. The representative told me I was welcome to look at and handle any of the guns on the table. I told him I had in fact ear marked funds for the purchase of a new 945 this year and was hoping for others, money permitting. However, I told him, now I wouldn't buy so much as a tie tack from them, much less a gun. He told me they were hearing a lot of that these days and sales were in fact down. Later at the social mixer for sponsors there was a conversation regarding an encounter one of the sponsors had experienced with a anti. When asked if I had seen any anti's since being at the event I answerred that the only anti I had seen since arriving was the represntative of Smith & Wesson. Crude? Perhaps. However what Smith & Wesson did to us was far worse than any of the antis can do.
The next day Smith & Wesson had pulled their display and left the event. When I asked one of the other sponsors I was told that a few of the sponsors had told the Smith rep he was not welcome there and should leave. It was ugly. It was brought on Smith & Wesson themselves. As far as I and many others are concerned they would be better suited and more warmly recieved at an HCI fund raiser.
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Gunslinger
TFL End of Summer Meet, August 12th & 13th, 2000
This past week while at the Bianci Cup as a sponsor I happened by the Smith & Wesson "booth", where they had a display of the guns they currently offer. The representative told me I was welcome to look at and handle any of the guns on the table. I told him I had in fact ear marked funds for the purchase of a new 945 this year and was hoping for others, money permitting. However, I told him, now I wouldn't buy so much as a tie tack from them, much less a gun. He told me they were hearing a lot of that these days and sales were in fact down. Later at the social mixer for sponsors there was a conversation regarding an encounter one of the sponsors had experienced with a anti. When asked if I had seen any anti's since being at the event I answerred that the only anti I had seen since arriving was the represntative of Smith & Wesson. Crude? Perhaps. However what Smith & Wesson did to us was far worse than any of the antis can do.
The next day Smith & Wesson had pulled their display and left the event. When I asked one of the other sponsors I was told that a few of the sponsors had told the Smith rep he was not welcome there and should leave. It was ugly. It was brought on Smith & Wesson themselves. As far as I and many others are concerned they would be better suited and more warmly recieved at an HCI fund raiser.
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Gunslinger
TFL End of Summer Meet, August 12th & 13th, 2000
denfoote,
We (I) dont want *+* to go under, I want ownership to change and if its unprofitable it will be sold and at a big loss I hope, emphasis on BIG. Put in friendly hands with full set balls hanging, we will all be proud to welcome this fine piece of guns history back into our lives. We just wont do so under its current weak minded leadership!
We (I) dont want *+* to go under, I want ownership to change and if its unprofitable it will be sold and at a big loss I hope, emphasis on BIG. Put in friendly hands with full set balls hanging, we will all be proud to welcome this fine piece of guns history back into our lives. We just wont do so under its current weak minded leadership!
Gunslinger
Moderator
My local dealer, who was going to drop S&W, now says that S&W has done nothing to impliment the agreement, so he will keep selling them until they try.
Don't forget, even if the company of S&W goes under, someone will buy up the equipment, pick up the most valuable employees and have a giant market opening to exploit along with the others. Thats the way capitalism works. Its bad for the company, the employees and the town, but we users might come out the winners in such a deal.
Don't forget, even if the company of S&W goes under, someone will buy up the equipment, pick up the most valuable employees and have a giant market opening to exploit along with the others. Thats the way capitalism works. Its bad for the company, the employees and the town, but we users might come out the winners in such a deal.
George Hill
Staff Alumnus
Invision this:
S&W folds - and sells out.
To HI POINT.
S&W folds - and sells out.
To HI POINT.
CoastieN70
New member
How bad are they hurtin'?
Davidson's, one of the largests distributitors in the country, no longer carries their products and Davidson's is not alone.
The cities are not buying their products and the Feds have been forbidden by the courts from dealing with them exculisively.
Are they hurting?
What do you think?
Davidson's, one of the largests distributitors in the country, no longer carries their products and Davidson's is not alone.
The cities are not buying their products and the Feds have been forbidden by the courts from dealing with them exculisively.
Are they hurting?
What do you think?
denfoote
If it helps, think of the boycott not as a punishment to S&W, but simple self interest for the gun comunity. S&W made a rational buisiness descision, one they hoped would maximize profits(like any good buisiness). By boycotting them, we inform the other companies that it is not in thier best interest to cave in to the government pressure.
Just my take
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Rob
From the Committee to Use Proffesional Politicians as Lab Animals
She doesn't have bad dreams because she's made of plastic...
If it helps, think of the boycott not as a punishment to S&W, but simple self interest for the gun comunity. S&W made a rational buisiness descision, one they hoped would maximize profits(like any good buisiness). By boycotting them, we inform the other companies that it is not in thier best interest to cave in to the government pressure.
Just my take
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Rob
From the Committee to Use Proffesional Politicians as Lab Animals
She doesn't have bad dreams because she's made of plastic...
Ok. Point well taken. Pooch, that is what I would like too. Do I see it happening? Something about a snowball's chance in He!! comes to mind. Any sale would include the"Agreement" just like any other debt. No other gun maker is going to touch It with a 10 foot pole. Any other investor with eyes, and half a brain is going to see what is going on and steer away quick. Hey, maybe Kolt will buy it!!!
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BOYCOTT SMITH AND WESSON!!!
Defend the Constitution from the foreign threat!!!!
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BOYCOTT SMITH AND WESSON!!!
Defend the Constitution from the foreign threat!!!!
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
SW has a simple choice. Fire Ed and renounce the agreement. Say they were blackmailed to take it by Cuomo. Certainly, his raving would make the case. Let him try to take them to court in the remaining time left to the Administration. If Bush wins, he won't puruse them. If Gore wins - well we are all screwed.
That's why the boycott should stay in force.
That's why the boycott should stay in force.
I am no S&W fan, but I must point out a few salient facts about the deal they made. They were unquestionedly put under incomprehensible pressure to sign the deal. Remember, LaPierre slammed it outta the ball park when he pointed out Clinton and Co. simply were not enforcing existing laws. There is no question that Clinton and Co. cut S&W out of the herd for special consideration. Point 1) S&W is in financial trouble for a lot of reasons. . . one being they make marginal products in the fastest growing segment of the arms market. Point 2) S&W is a wholly owned subsidary of a British firm who would has made no secret of its desire to unload S&W. Point 3) S&W has a huge and very sensitive pressure point in that S&W's owners are a British company. The Brits are ruled by Tony Blair, a fellow-traveller of Bill clinton. Point 4) the British are not pestered with details like the Second Amendment. They have case law, but that can be overruled at the pleasure of the legislature.
What did S&W do? They adapted to survive. As it turned out the agreement immediately came under attack, as well it should. Is S&W implementing the agreement? Only to the extent they had provisions already under construction. Would S&W back out of the agreement? I think so. NO CONTRACT SIGNED UNDER DURESS WILL BE UPHELD IN COURT. The sooner this deal get to court, the more we will all learn.
For my 2 cents, I think S&W did everyone a favor in caving in the to Fascists. Finally, finally, the industry began a counter attack.
Am I saying we should support S&W???? No! Sink 'em. In doing so we will let everyone know there are consequences to our actions. If S&W goes TU some other company will buy the intellectual property and the name. S&W will live on!
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Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.
Barry Goldwater--1964
What did S&W do? They adapted to survive. As it turned out the agreement immediately came under attack, as well it should. Is S&W implementing the agreement? Only to the extent they had provisions already under construction. Would S&W back out of the agreement? I think so. NO CONTRACT SIGNED UNDER DURESS WILL BE UPHELD IN COURT. The sooner this deal get to court, the more we will all learn.
For my 2 cents, I think S&W did everyone a favor in caving in the to Fascists. Finally, finally, the industry began a counter attack.
Am I saying we should support S&W???? No! Sink 'em. In doing so we will let everyone know there are consequences to our actions. If S&W goes TU some other company will buy the intellectual property and the name. S&W will live on!
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Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.
Barry Goldwater--1964
S&W caved when other companies did not. They could have held put but decided to take the easy and, so they thought, profitable road. They probably believed that they would get preferential treatment in LEO/Govt contracts. Ralizing that other companies would not go along with this deal they likely had visions of multi-million dollar contracts going thier way. The house recently passed a resolution prohibiting special treatment of S&W in contracts. And even if this preferential treatment were given once challenged it would be declared what it is, illegal. It circumvents the process of open bidding.
To anyone that excuses what S&W did I ask that they please read the latest issue of the American Rifleman or that they read the full text of the contract on-line.
I'm not going to buy anything from them. I urge all law abiding gun owners to refrain from giving their moeny to a company that doesn't give a hoot about them.
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So many pistols, so little money.
To anyone that excuses what S&W did I ask that they please read the latest issue of the American Rifleman or that they read the full text of the contract on-line.
I'm not going to buy anything from them. I urge all law abiding gun owners to refrain from giving their moeny to a company that doesn't give a hoot about them.
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So many pistols, so little money.
Alas. I was a S&W fan for years. Owned many, sold many, shot them all, carried one through my travails in darktown, still own a few, etc. But due to this "deal", S&W is off my shopping list. Don't know if this adds to their "hurt", but I for one won't support their appeasement policy.
David Roberson
New member
I agree with other sentiments expressed here -- S&W deserves to die, and it is in fact possible that the rest of us will benefit from the death, if the rights to its products are purchased by a decent company.
And I'll just add that at the NRA convention in Charlotte, the guys at the S&W booth were indeed admitting that sales are off noticeably.
And I'll just add that at the NRA convention in Charlotte, the guys at the S&W booth were indeed admitting that sales are off noticeably.
Readers of TFL should be aware that the S&W agreement is standard operating procedure for government regulators today. They use the coercive power of litigation by a government agency to force "voluntary" agreements which implement regulations which they could never get through Congress or have issued through the normal regulatory process. That's why Cuomo and others probably never thought there would be much resistance.
Any executive at a large company could give you many other examples of such back-door regulation. It's common enough that it's even studied by political scientists. Get ready -more is on the way!
Any executive at a large company could give you many other examples of such back-door regulation. It's common enough that it's even studied by political scientists. Get ready -more is on the way!