Hoping for EZ annealing

[Unclenick]

https://vacaero.com/information-resources/metallography-with-george-vander-voort/1440-deformation-and-annealing-of-cartridge-brass.html

... While figure 10 shows a dramatic drop in hardness starting at about 500°F. Don't leave that out. Assuming the veracity of the author, that makes it pretty clear something happens at that temperature that the author apparently doesn't see in the microstructure, but can obviously measure.

When someone makes a statement in a discussion I just like to know how they came to that conclusion. If you consider questioning the source trolling then ban me, delete my account. To me making a statement and calling it a fact with no supporting evidence is trolling.

You come across as a reasonably intelligent, if inflexible person, so I am having great difficulty believing you are genuinely that obtuse. I expect you know darn well I was not referring to any legitimate question about sources or anything else. I was referring to this needlessly snotty statement:

How many 1000 yard benchrest records have you held ? Any degrees in metallurgy perhaps ? Or is this just what Bubba Hicks down at the hardware store/gunshop told you?

Your post #7 disputed what I said, which was just fine. The last one suggests anyone who hasn't got a degree in metallurgy or hasn't set a world record is just not qualified to discuss the subject with you, even though you don't have those qualifications yourself. I had edited my statement down to the point it didn't really communicate what I meant. My bad. But then in post #10 it's suddenly like a different person is writing your post for you and doing so uncivilly. That's what I objected to, not factual content, and there is nothing you can claim you were doing that will put lipstick on that pig. Saying things intended to get someone's goat or pick a fight or even just to feel superior in your own mind are what the board rules mean by trolling behavior, and it's the board's definition that matters. Just behave civilly in the future and leave the put-downs off the page. That's all I ask.

 

[hounddawg]

While figure 10 shows a dramatic drop in hardness starting at about 500°F. Don't leave that out. Assuming the veracity of the author, that makes it pretty clear something happens at that temperature that the author apparently doesn't see in the microstructure, but can obviously measure.

I have no idea where figure 10 is, the article I am looking at stops at figure 8a and 8b
however for figure 5a and 5B he provides the following commentary

Figure 5a and b: Microstructure of wrought cartridge brass, Cu-30% Zn, cold reduced 50%, and annealed: 260°C (500°F) for 30 min. did not visibly alter the cold worked FCC grains (note slip lines) and annealing twins; 371°C (700°F) for 30 min. produced partial recrystallization. Tint etched with Klemm’s I reagent (Originals at 100X, crossed polarized light plus sensitive tint).

If you are not recrystallizing you are not relieving stress and no reduction of neck splitting can occur

At 900 degrees for 15 minutes the following figure 7a

Figures 7a and b: Microstructure of wrought cartridge brass, Cu – 30% Zn, cold reduced 50%, annealed at 482°C (900°F): – 15 min. has fully recrystallized the FCC grain structure, but it has a duplex grain size distribution

I think we both agree that any treatment time of 15 minutes would ruin the case as far as it ever being shot again.

to finish I don't believe a degree in metallurgy is not required but it does indicate that one knows what they are talking about in terms of metal annealing and I would tend to take their word of an accountant or air conditioning repairman or even a local gunsmith on such matters

The historical evidence on heating the necks till red is hard to avoid. You know as well as I do that heating the necks till red was the thing to do for many many years. Not all the shooters set records but I would venture to say that most who were setting records were annealing their cases in dark rooms with a plumbers torch.

Me I quit annealing altogether well over a year ago and my groups/velocities have not suffered in the slightest nor has my case life. You guys want to waste your time an money that is fine but some new guys might want to spend their money and effort on things that will really improve their practice

 

[RC20]

Me I quit annealing altogether well over a year ago and my groups/velocities have not suffered in the slightest nor has my case life. You guys want to waste your time an money that is fine but some new guys might want to spend their money and effort on things that will really improve their practice

And there in is the crux. You have taken a mission upon your shoulder and have become as bothersome as the knock on the door and who refuses a no thank you.

If you want to make your point you can do it in 4 lines (less?)

I have tried it and it does nothign for me and I do not believe it does anything for anyhone and does not work

(feel free to cut that and paste and hold as a doc and just place it in the response.

Others have stated what it does for them and why. That is equally valid.

There is a preponderance of evidence that says it does do that and comments thrown out like heated to red hot for low many years (though there is NO data on that is there?)

The Candle method works for stated reasons and it had some following (and still does).

Or you could say I tried it, it did nothign for me, I don't believe in it nor think it works and others have a different view.

Clearly you have set your view in concrete. You then do confirmation bias to try to convince others (or maybe even yourself).

Science is not about coming up with a theory and then selectively using only the data that confirms it. Shades of the human decent wars where they defend it to the death. Its not about right or wrong its about correct and being open to information be it up your happy ally or not.

 

[hounddawg]

problem is RC20 is that you have no scientific data to support your theory, none, nada, zip, zilch. I am not selectively using data I am using all the data that is available. Unfortunate for you that does not support your buying that Annie. I have asked you over and over that if you have any lab based scientific study that shows any change in a metals softness or grain structure at 750F and so far no links. That tells me you have nothing except opinion and I don't base large purchases on opinion.

But you are right I quit and won't ever bother with it again becasue I can read and learn and I have learned that it is worthless even when done perfectly. I can observe my results and can say confidently I can load precision ammo with the best. I do it week in and week out and has nothing to do with annealing. Annealing is worthless. Now if I could just get a handle on the wind lol

 

[RC20]

I don't have to know how electricity is generated to use it.

Nor do I have to know how to calculate orbital mechanics to accept the Earth goes around the sun (while the whole shebang solar system is sailing thorough space at 25K or some such)

I don't have to know how a Primer is made to use it either.

So by your logic its pure faith that I pull the trigger and it goes phhhhttt (or Kaboom with powder in the case)?

Gravity, yep its there and I can't begin to explain it. Dark matter? well the boys and girls that know say its there and they don't know what it is. I guess that makes it wrong too (and maybe it is, but something does not add up out there)

So yea, by others experience I can believe and accept along with a considerable amount of science that Uniclenick has presented as well as Jeehpammer (not to mention case mfgs annealing the case neck and shoulder) to go with that.

They still don't have an explanation for electron flow in solid state devices. But by golly you can make it do marvelous things (including this typing and Forum)

 

[NC FNS]

Yes, UncleNick, it’s an AR platform.
After I anneal my cases, I think I'll relax, review quantum theory and the theory of relativity, and come up with the elusive Grand Unification Theory. Heh, heh.

Thanks everyone for your input.

 

[hounddawg]

considerable amount of science that Uniclenick has presented as well as Jeehpammer (not to mention case mfgs annealing the case neck and shoulder) to go with that

so post a link to some of that considerable science that documents any significant changes at 750F for a few seconds. Nick seems to be dodging the question and has posted no links in this or the previous thread on the subject and Jeephammers studies were done with a $50 Ebay microscope and some Templaq in his barn/shed

Annealing in a few seconds is possible. AMPs do it, but I figure the temps need to be well above 1000F and the time, temperature and position of the heat on the case needs to be precisely controlled to do so. By all other studies I can find on the subject nothing is accomplished below 1000F even when the cases are left at that temp for 5 minutes or more. Even more curious is that AMP who has spent a lot of money on numerous studies which were performed by METLAB has never sponsored or at least never published any studies showing velocity consistency improves or case life is extended even with perfectly annealed case. That right there makes my spidy sense tingle

 

[Unclenick]

I have no idea where figure 10 is

It's the third (right-most) of three small graphs positioned between the figure 3 set and the figure 4 set of metallographs, about 2/3 of the way down scrolling through the article.

Nick seems to be dodging the question

I have no idea what you think I am "dodging"?

 

[hounddawg]

Ok I see the graph Nick but once again the time span is 30 minutes

On the dodging the question I keep putting out this question.

Does anyone have links to any scientifically conducted studies not behind a paywall that shows any significant changes in the neck/shoulder area by heating it to 750F for less than ten seconds.

So far crickets

my other question which I have been pursuing for years is

Has anyone conducted a verified study which shows that annealing does anything to do with improving accuracy or case life.

once again crickets. I have posted that last challenge on boards which I know the AMP guys monitor.... Seems they can test everything else under the sun but nothing that shows a real world reason to buy their machine....curious isn't it that in all the years of gun blogs and youtube videos no one has ever used a test barrel in a machine rest to get the answer?

Seriously all it would take is one verifiable study that proves statistically under controlled scientific conditions you got a 5 FPS lower standard deviation using cases annealed on a AMP vs non annealed and I would have one on the UPS truck the next work day. I don't think I have to worry about that though because I get consistent velocities out of my non annealed cases with ES below 20 and SD's below 10 on a normal basis. Expensive rabbits feet if you ask me. Save some money and buy a "lucky" hat

Just a guess on my part but I would bet a small chunk of change that neck needs to reach over 1000F to have any significant changes in just a few seconds. When I was doing the dark room method I was easily hitting 1000 - 1200 on the neck section judging by the glow chart. Those cases survived double digit loadings on them with no accuracy issues and no neck splits. If I ever put a .308 barrel on any of my rifles again I would not hesitate to use them in matches

 

[hooligan1]

Houndawg can you do the test and give us some data on the results.

 

[hounddawg]

Houndawg can you do the test and give us some data on the results.

been real world testing it for 9 or 10 years now. I don't feel like throwing away $1500 on a AMP but if you want to buy me one, I will be happy to donate the time to test it

did the red glow routine for 5 or 6 years, followed by 2 years on the Annealeez, followed by a year and a half of no annealing at all. Never split a case neck, always get great velocity standard deviations. My real world tests may not produce pretty pics but my chrono results and targets tell me it is not worth the hassle

Seems to me though if I was manufacturing a machine and trying convince the public it is worth buying I would want some sort of lab test test data that would show the benefits of buying it as far as potential accuracy improvements or cost savings in regard to case life. I am convinced that the AMP will actually anneal the brass just that I see no benefit as far as case life or accuracy compared to non annealed cases

When I am getting consistent ES's below 20, SD's below 10 and double digit reloadings from cases with no annealing then what exactly would a perfect anneal improve for me? I don't have enough money to waste on things I don't need.

I did just a new rear bag though, it was pricey but way below the price of any annealing machine. I am betting about $200 bucks in the hope it will improve my composite scores by at least 1 or 2 percent and solve my tracking issues. I don't mind spending money, I just like to make sure it is spent wisely

 

[lordmorgul]

been real world testing it for 9 or 10 years now.

But everyone else needs a degree and a lab, nice. I think we can all agree then no one actually knows what is and isn’t effective, you included. So do whatever floats your boat.



Andrew - Lancaster, CA
NRA Life Member, CRPA member, Calguns.net contributor, CGF / SAF / FPC / CCRKBA / GOA / NAGR / NRA-ILA contributor, USCCA member - Support your defenders!

 

[hounddawg]

why scientific studies, becasue I have provided many links of scientific studies as to why it does not do anything. If you want to argue otherwise evidence should be of comparable nature, not hear say

When I am getting consistent ES's below 20, SD's below 10 and double digit reloadings from cases with no annealing then what exactly would a perfect anneal improve for me?

no degree required to answer this question, btw this is hearsay but I believe my experiences. I am not doing anything special to my cases , no magic pixie dust or anything. Just common sense reloading that everyone does

 

[F. Guffey]

Years ago I suggested reloaders make a list of rules that apply to annealing; TRY! to understand, I am not talking about my rules, I am talking about rules that apply to annealing. It was about that time the 'potty' mouths took over.

So what did I do? I made up a few rules that applied to annealing; the rules were not my rules but rules I thought should apply. After that I made a few tools for annealing, the tools are not recognizable as annealing tools "but" THE TOOLS conform to the rules of annealing.

I have also applied the rules when critiquing methods and or techniques to annealing, it beats the heck out of saying "I do not know" when asked "Why do you do it that way", or "cause".

F. Guffey