davem Someone here I believe tried to give us this link you might not have seen it. http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm
Home Defense Questions...Perplexed
- Thread starter rodwhaincamo
- Start date
There seems to be an enduring myth that it's a good idea to shoot somebody "just a little" to discourage them from advancing. Then, if they don't have the courtesy to get sufficiently scared off & keep coming, "let 'em have it with the real thing".
This is about as realistic as trying to shoot the gun/knife out of their hand, just "winging" them, firing a warning shot straight up to let 'em you're "serious", and "I don't really want to hurt anybody, I just want to scare them away".
The legal justification for using birdshot on someone in a defensive situation is exactly the same as it is with buckshot.
If you're justified legally in shooting at all, why endanger your life by deliberately using ineffective tiny shot charges that simply don't disable or stop an advancing threat to begin with?
If you have to shoot, shoot to survive, not to **** somebody off.
Other considerations are they're frequently not reliable in autopistols (I tested them in all calibers available through over 20 rifles, revolvers, and autos 12 or 13 years back), and if you use a revolver you're giving up one third of your onboard capacity (more in a five-shot snub) to two largely worthless shots in an enclosed (CLOSE!) space where you almost certainly won't have time to reload before the guy (or guys) can be right on top of you.
It remains a fact that overpenetration is one downside of living in an apartment, and it remains a fact that if you try too hard to ensure no wall penetration by using anemic loads and tiny shot charges, you reduce your own defenses.
I'm not being unsympathetic to anybody on either side of the wall, just addressing the handgun shotshell & "loaded down" issues.
To use a firearm in an apartment, with its attendant risks, is a choice Rod will have to make for himself.
My concern is that it's an educated choice.
Denis
This is about as realistic as trying to shoot the gun/knife out of their hand, just "winging" them, firing a warning shot straight up to let 'em you're "serious", and "I don't really want to hurt anybody, I just want to scare them away".
The legal justification for using birdshot on someone in a defensive situation is exactly the same as it is with buckshot.
If you're justified legally in shooting at all, why endanger your life by deliberately using ineffective tiny shot charges that simply don't disable or stop an advancing threat to begin with?
If you have to shoot, shoot to survive, not to **** somebody off.
Other considerations are they're frequently not reliable in autopistols (I tested them in all calibers available through over 20 rifles, revolvers, and autos 12 or 13 years back), and if you use a revolver you're giving up one third of your onboard capacity (more in a five-shot snub) to two largely worthless shots in an enclosed (CLOSE!) space where you almost certainly won't have time to reload before the guy (or guys) can be right on top of you.
It remains a fact that overpenetration is one downside of living in an apartment, and it remains a fact that if you try too hard to ensure no wall penetration by using anemic loads and tiny shot charges, you reduce your own defenses.
I'm not being unsympathetic to anybody on either side of the wall, just addressing the handgun shotshell & "loaded down" issues.
To use a firearm in an apartment, with its attendant risks, is a choice Rod will have to make for himself.
My concern is that it's an educated choice.
Denis
Sheikyourbootie
New member
I won't use birdshot simply because I've seen cases where it's failed on birds. The most spectacular failure was this spring while turkey hunting in northern Ca. A tom landed right next to the decoy (about 30ft). I aimed for the neck, and the bird jumped for takeoff, causing my shot to hit him square in the chest (3 1/2" magnum #4 turkey load through an extra full choke) then 2 more shots as he ran away.
I popped him with my .357 (that I keep on me for the occasional boar you might run into) as he tried to find a way up the hill 25 yards away. His body was quite peppered, and I'm amazed at how tough these birds are. If a 25# bird can take 3 hits with a 12ga to the body and still run, there's no way I'll trust it on a person....drugged out or not.
I popped him with my .357 (that I keep on me for the occasional boar you might run into) as he tried to find a way up the hill 25 yards away. His body was quite peppered, and I'm amazed at how tough these birds are. If a 25# bird can take 3 hits with a 12ga to the body and still run, there's no way I'll trust it on a person....drugged out or not.
TeamSinglestack
New member
While it is commendable to take your neighbors into consideration when thinking about your personal defensive plan, I would focus more on ensuring your rounds are absorbed by any potential threat, rather than downgrading your chosen firearm. Pretty much any firearm round will penetrate home walls and still have enough energy to potentially cause a deadly injury to an unintended target.
While a lower powered round may very well be enough to deter a potential threat, imo, it is better to prepare for the determined threat who will stop at nothing to do you and yours harm.
While a lower powered round may very well be enough to deter a potential threat, imo, it is better to prepare for the determined threat who will stop at nothing to do you and yours harm.
rodwhaincamo
New member
I have a motion-sensored night light in the livingroom, a night light in the hallway bathroom, and a nearly worthless one in my bedroom.
I have additional window locks in place, and make sure all doors are locked before I go to bed.
Supposedly I live on the nice part of town, but if you go down one block the apartments begin to get "ghetto."
There have been numerous "kick-doors" and break-ins through the master bedroom [only window].
The neighbor next to me had someone pulling off his screen at 3 AM. Were it not for his dog...
That really really bothers me. The master bedroom at that time??? The perp had to expect someone in there at that time. That's too ballsy for me.
I have heard my doorknob checked three times. The one I "caught" happened to be a young kid.
As for reduced loads, I assume that a 180 gr bullet loaded to 880 fps which has a tad over 300 ft/lbs [enough to be worthy?] at 10 yds [approximate distance from bedroom door to front door] would be slowed considerably by 2 exterior walls or the front door to hopefully not be life-threatening to my neighbors down stream.
Though I feel there are some people who don't deserve to breathe, I hold life in the utmost respect. But if it comes down to mine or yours, well...
I seriously doubt I'll ever need it, but having known people who have been killed for no reason has me wanting to be prepared. You just don't know. And those chances I am not willing to take.
I explained to my other half that were I to have a pistol in pocket and several armed guys were to invade our home I would have to take the chance that no harm would be done to me or my 1 1/2 yr old daughter since the likely outcome would be grim. Those odds I am not willing to take as my actions may very well prove disasterous.
Not to sound callous, but what are the odds I would actually strike a neighbor late at night anyway [they both work 8-5]?
So the general consensus here is to load up with standard defensive ammo?
I have additional window locks in place, and make sure all doors are locked before I go to bed.
Supposedly I live on the nice part of town, but if you go down one block the apartments begin to get "ghetto."
There have been numerous "kick-doors" and break-ins through the master bedroom [only window].
The neighbor next to me had someone pulling off his screen at 3 AM. Were it not for his dog...
That really really bothers me. The master bedroom at that time??? The perp had to expect someone in there at that time. That's too ballsy for me.
I have heard my doorknob checked three times. The one I "caught" happened to be a young kid.
As for reduced loads, I assume that a 180 gr bullet loaded to 880 fps which has a tad over 300 ft/lbs [enough to be worthy?] at 10 yds [approximate distance from bedroom door to front door] would be slowed considerably by 2 exterior walls or the front door to hopefully not be life-threatening to my neighbors down stream.
Though I feel there are some people who don't deserve to breathe, I hold life in the utmost respect. But if it comes down to mine or yours, well...
I seriously doubt I'll ever need it, but having known people who have been killed for no reason has me wanting to be prepared. You just don't know. And those chances I am not willing to take.
I explained to my other half that were I to have a pistol in pocket and several armed guys were to invade our home I would have to take the chance that no harm would be done to me or my 1 1/2 yr old daughter since the likely outcome would be grim. Those odds I am not willing to take as my actions may very well prove disasterous.
Not to sound callous, but what are the odds I would actually strike a neighbor late at night anyway [they both work 8-5]?
So the general consensus here is to load up with standard defensive ammo?
rodwhaincamo
New member
singlestack : Were I to have a SA or DA pistol I would have all confidence in hitting a BG at such close range. But with a DA revolver I have found a BG's odds aren't too bad after the first shot [SA as I would cock the hammer] since I doubt he'll stand still for me.
Need a LOT more practice
I have been pouring over pistols suitable for protection, both for the home, and my other who does lots of jogging with her iPod on.
For now she carries the pepper spray I got her.
Need a LOT more practice
I have been pouring over pistols suitable for protection, both for the home, and my other who does lots of jogging with her iPod on.
For now she carries the pepper spray I got her.
Last edited:
Some mention was made of .410 Shotgun loads earlier in this thread. I assume the intent was to use them in a hand gun of the "Judge" variety. For those of you who have the "Judge" with a cylinder in that length, here are some actual test results.
The (2-1/2") Federal Buckshot load designed as I understand it for the "Judge", would not penetrate a 1/2" plywood target backing board at 12'. All of the pellets were embeded and clearly visible, but did not penetrate. They spread to a 4-5" pattern at that distance. This was from a new "Judge" in the last six months.
.45 LC factory "cowboy loads" were tried the same afternoon and penetrated the plywood and a 1" poplar fence rail as well, but keyholed at the same distance(12'). Reloads at a chrono'd 800 fps featuring a 255 gr LSWC, penetrated both the plywood and fence rail as well, with no keyholing, though accuracy was on the order of 3" at that distance.
I was under-impressed enough with the .410 shot shell loads to advise my friend that, for home defense, he'd be far better off with .45 LC ammunition. For hiking, the regular bird shot .410's make some sense for snakes I suppose, but buck shot loads in a SD situation leave a lot to be desired.
JMHO, Rodfac
The (2-1/2") Federal Buckshot load designed as I understand it for the "Judge", would not penetrate a 1/2" plywood target backing board at 12'. All of the pellets were embeded and clearly visible, but did not penetrate. They spread to a 4-5" pattern at that distance. This was from a new "Judge" in the last six months.
.45 LC factory "cowboy loads" were tried the same afternoon and penetrated the plywood and a 1" poplar fence rail as well, but keyholed at the same distance(12'). Reloads at a chrono'd 800 fps featuring a 255 gr LSWC, penetrated both the plywood and fence rail as well, with no keyholing, though accuracy was on the order of 3" at that distance.
I was under-impressed enough with the .410 shot shell loads to advise my friend that, for home defense, he'd be far better off with .45 LC ammunition. For hiking, the regular bird shot .410's make some sense for snakes I suppose, but buck shot loads in a SD situation leave a lot to be desired.
JMHO, Rodfac
rodwhaincamo
New member
rtp : My assumtion that 2 exterior walls or the front door would slow a bullet down considerably was way off. Thanks for that link.
I used a 4" Model 29 for years as a 'duty/do everything' gun. I looked at most of the then-available .44 Special & Mag loads thought, or advertised, as suitable for anti-personnel use. This included the 44 Special with 200 Gold Dot, 200 Silvertips, Federal 200 grain LSWCHP's and at least one factory round (forget WHAT now) with a 180 grain Sierra Bullet. I also used the old Hornady 'Custom' .44 Mag load with a 240 LSWCHP bullet as well as 210 grain Mag Silvertips and Fiocchi's 200 grain Magnum JHP.
Being a curious sort, I shot water jugs, soaked books and small-medium critters with them at every opportunity. In a nutshell, and considering your home-defense concerns, I would I rate them like this from a 4" gun.
The 180 grain JHP load was a waste; shot through everything with no expansion shown
.44 Special Silvertip: Usually expands, penetrates least. Good house load if that's what you want.
.44 Special Gold Dot: Might expand, might not or just mash half shut. Seen them shot into everything from tomcats to deer. They do cut a nice hole, almost as good as a SWC.
.44 Special Federal 200: My pick of the Specials. Enough of everything to meet Sarge's minimum standards. Acts like a light, low velocity SWC most of the time.
.44 Mag 210 Silvertip: Excellent, all-around .44 duty/defense load and fine on medium game.
.44 Mag 200 Fiocchi: Good load, tough bullet that still expands well even from 4" barrels. Fully equal to the 210 Silvertip.
The Hornady 240 LSWCHP load is discontinued but acted just like a 900 fps 240 SWC reload.
Just remember that everything is a compromise. A 210 Mag Silvertip that centers your intruder, is less dangerous upon exiting him than a 200 Special Silvertip that misses him altogether.
The S&W Model 29 is one heck of a fine gun, as is the .45 Colt. My answer to the 'house gun' problem is 255 grain SWC's at about 1000 fps. If I lived somewhere that had to be 'watered down' much, I would be hunting another place to live.
Being a curious sort, I shot water jugs, soaked books and small-medium critters with them at every opportunity. In a nutshell, and considering your home-defense concerns, I would I rate them like this from a 4" gun.
The 180 grain JHP load was a waste; shot through everything with no expansion shown
.44 Special Silvertip: Usually expands, penetrates least. Good house load if that's what you want.
.44 Special Gold Dot: Might expand, might not or just mash half shut. Seen them shot into everything from tomcats to deer. They do cut a nice hole, almost as good as a SWC.
.44 Special Federal 200: My pick of the Specials. Enough of everything to meet Sarge's minimum standards. Acts like a light, low velocity SWC most of the time.
.44 Mag 210 Silvertip: Excellent, all-around .44 duty/defense load and fine on medium game.
.44 Mag 200 Fiocchi: Good load, tough bullet that still expands well even from 4" barrels. Fully equal to the 210 Silvertip.
The Hornady 240 LSWCHP load is discontinued but acted just like a 900 fps 240 SWC reload.
Just remember that everything is a compromise. A 210 Mag Silvertip that centers your intruder, is less dangerous upon exiting him than a 200 Special Silvertip that misses him altogether.
The S&W Model 29 is one heck of a fine gun, as is the .45 Colt. My answer to the 'house gun' problem is 255 grain SWC's at about 1000 fps. If I lived somewhere that had to be 'watered down' much, I would be hunting another place to live.
Sheikyourbootie
New member
Rod, you mentioned you were considering a 380. For quite a bit less money, I'd still consider a pump shotgun. The sound of the pump action translates nicely into English, Spanish and Ebonics as roughly, "you have made a grave error in the victim selection process, leave immediately so you can clean your shorts."
Anyone who remains in your apartment or continues to attempt entry is suffering from a serious case of acute lead deficiency disorder and needs to be cured. #1 Buck (apartment or not) is the smallest I'd go, 00buck preferred. He's had his warning when you chambered a round.
It is nice you are concerned for your neighbors. The bottom line is this: Anything capable of stopping a determined man is going to penetrate several walls if you miss. I'd pick something that stands the best chance at stopping a BG in as few shots as possible.
Anyone who remains in your apartment or continues to attempt entry is suffering from a serious case of acute lead deficiency disorder and needs to be cured. #1 Buck (apartment or not) is the smallest I'd go, 00buck preferred. He's had his warning when you chambered a round.
It is nice you are concerned for your neighbors. The bottom line is this: Anything capable of stopping a determined man is going to penetrate several walls if you miss. I'd pick something that stands the best chance at stopping a BG in as few shots as possible.
rodwhaincamo
New member
I also like the idea of a shotgun, but only were I to stay barricaded. As stupid as it may be I investigate noises and such. In light of that I feel a shotgun would be too unwieldy.
A shotgun is definately on my list though as I love dove/quail hunting, as well as for home defense.
I want a pistol that can double for carry first as my other half jogs and can't stop going on vacations.
A shotgun is definately on my list though as I love dove/quail hunting, as well as for home defense.
I want a pistol that can double for carry first as my other half jogs and can't stop going on vacations.
JMHO but
I never would have a gun for anything but final resort in an apartment. In a house, the conditions are different but I would never risk the lives of many other people in an apartment complex. A bullet could go through 2 apartments before stopping and if you actually hit someone then you'd have to live with taking an innocent life for the rest of your life, not only the lawsuit that would end any financial future you plan to have.
When I lived in an apartment I had home defense pepper spray and a baton. If that same spray can stop a bear from attacking then it'll work just fine on an intruder and I didn't have to worry about my neighbors. You have many options with using pepper spray and adding other options, such as shock batons, regular batons, tasers, etc.
I've seen many people here say that you should worry first about taking down the attacker and not worrying about neighbors, for your family's safety, but you will end your family's financial future if you kill an innocent person, when you could have incapacitated the individual with other means.
If you get a house, then by all means, use a firearm, but in an apartment complex, that's just asking for trouble.
I never would have a gun for anything but final resort in an apartment. In a house, the conditions are different but I would never risk the lives of many other people in an apartment complex. A bullet could go through 2 apartments before stopping and if you actually hit someone then you'd have to live with taking an innocent life for the rest of your life, not only the lawsuit that would end any financial future you plan to have.
When I lived in an apartment I had home defense pepper spray and a baton. If that same spray can stop a bear from attacking then it'll work just fine on an intruder and I didn't have to worry about my neighbors. You have many options with using pepper spray and adding other options, such as shock batons, regular batons, tasers, etc.
I've seen many people here say that you should worry first about taking down the attacker and not worrying about neighbors, for your family's safety, but you will end your family's financial future if you kill an innocent person, when you could have incapacitated the individual with other means.
If you get a house, then by all means, use a firearm, but in an apartment complex, that's just asking for trouble.
Re wall penetration- I don't want to open up another can of worms by bringing it in, but I will as an example.
Not too long ago I was working with with several less-lethal 12-gauge loads & built a simulated basic wall section of sheetrock & 2x4 studs for it.
EVEN RUBBER BUCKSHOT COMPLETELY PENETRATED BOTH SIDES, as did a beanbag load.
I don't mean to start a debate over rubber for HD (an equally bad idea), but I use it to illustrate that walls can be easily penetrated.
Denis
Not too long ago I was working with with several less-lethal 12-gauge loads & built a simulated basic wall section of sheetrock & 2x4 studs for it.
EVEN RUBBER BUCKSHOT COMPLETELY PENETRATED BOTH SIDES, as did a beanbag load.
I don't mean to start a debate over rubber for HD (an equally bad idea), but I use it to illustrate that walls can be easily penetrated.
Denis
rodwhaincamo
New member
I'm not so sure pepper spray indoors is such a good idea. I was fairly far from someone who let loose with some and it didn't take long to reach my area. I left the area immediately after I caught the first whiff. Powerful stuff.
I do have a 3 D cell Maglite next to my handcannon.
I'm hoping that the threat of being shot will be enough to discourage any possible invader, as I would let him/them know what is to befall them were they to continue.
As someone else mentioned, insurance will cover any theft. Possessions can be replaced. My child's innocence and family's well-being cannot.
Shooting is the last resort.
I could not live with seriously injuring/killing an innocent victim, and I rather like my neighbors
Good people.
Even were I to slightly hurt them [or others] I'd feel obligated to take out their trash, bring in the groceries, etc.
I really do appreciate the responses and perspectives given by all.
I do have a 3 D cell Maglite next to my handcannon.
I'm hoping that the threat of being shot will be enough to discourage any possible invader, as I would let him/them know what is to befall them were they to continue.
As someone else mentioned, insurance will cover any theft. Possessions can be replaced. My child's innocence and family's well-being cannot.
Shooting is the last resort.
I could not live with seriously injuring/killing an innocent victim, and I rather like my neighbors
Good people.Even were I to slightly hurt them [or others] I'd feel obligated to take out their trash, bring in the groceries, etc.
I really do appreciate the responses and perspectives given by all.
rodwhaincamo
New member
How well do those really work?
OC spray indoors will tend to bite you, along with anybody you use it on.
In a small room it'll quickly spread, you'll get a dose, and it'll take quite a while to clear it out of the furniture & carpet.
In ALL the times I was present when it was used, it got me too.
A conventional "bug zapper" stun gun of good quality CAN work, but it requires contact distances, which means if you're close enough to touch him he's close enough to touch you.
In such instances, distance is always your friend, and I wouldn't count on being able to use the stun gun effectively. It's relatively easily countered.
The only time I've ever seen one used was during an arrest where a store security guy & I were trying to get a resistive subject cuffed.
The security guy zapped him, I didn't notice a dramatic response.
Clothing, size, any drug influence, and the intensity of the charge are all factors, and that assumes you can apply the electrodes solidly during a struggle in the first place.
A Taser, on the other hand, offers distance, proven effectiveness (IF you can hit with both barbs), and no need for close grappling.
Denis
In a small room it'll quickly spread, you'll get a dose, and it'll take quite a while to clear it out of the furniture & carpet.
In ALL the times I was present when it was used, it got me too.
A conventional "bug zapper" stun gun of good quality CAN work, but it requires contact distances, which means if you're close enough to touch him he's close enough to touch you.
In such instances, distance is always your friend, and I wouldn't count on being able to use the stun gun effectively. It's relatively easily countered.
The only time I've ever seen one used was during an arrest where a store security guy & I were trying to get a resistive subject cuffed.
The security guy zapped him, I didn't notice a dramatic response.
Clothing, size, any drug influence, and the intensity of the charge are all factors, and that assumes you can apply the electrodes solidly during a struggle in the first place.
A Taser, on the other hand, offers distance, proven effectiveness (IF you can hit with both barbs), and no need for close grappling.
Denis
If I was worried about over penetration I would use birdshot. I wouldn't hesitate a second nor lose any sleep. #5 or 6 shot at 10ft is nothing to laugh about. At that range it is a tight mass of lead.
Your other option is to load some light 44 special loads or buy some. Neither solution is optimal but neither is your situation.
Your other option is to load some light 44 special loads or buy some. Neither solution is optimal but neither is your situation.
Sheikyourbootie
New member
Rod, you also gave another answer to your situation. "Were it not for his dog..."
A dog, a shotgun, buckshot and a maglight....backlit hallway. If the BG is funneled down a back lit hallway with a yipping dog on his heels, especially after hearing clack/clack...he's in dire need of double ought social work. Put up a backstop at the end of your hallway if it makes you feel better....Maybe a mirror or bookshelf with scrap steel mounted behind it?
A dog, a shotgun, buckshot and a maglight....backlit hallway. If the BG is funneled down a back lit hallway with a yipping dog on his heels, especially after hearing clack/clack...he's in dire need of double ought social work. Put up a backstop at the end of your hallway if it makes you feel better....Maybe a mirror or bookshelf with scrap steel mounted behind it?