home-defense bullets/rounds: pistol vs. rifle (vs. shotgun)

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anonimoose

New member
Shooters,

No, I'm not going to give my personal opinion. Just wanted to offer more data points for the debate.

1. The Box O Truth has his conclusions:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu143.htm

Backed-up by some actual experiments:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot12.htm
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm

2. NAVSEA (Naval Surface Warfare Division at Dahlgren VA) did its own weapons penetration tests:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKhMOfaYwvE

Alas, the posted video doesn't have the results of the shotgun test, but the following rounds are tested:
at 3:43 in the video, 9x19mm FMJ (fired from M-9)
at 4:06 in the video, 7.62x39mm FMJ (fired from AK-47)
at 4:37 in the video, 5.56x45mm FMJ (fired from M-16)

Two limitations:
a. I'm assuming that they're using FMJ and not JHP rounds
b. The NAVSEA mannequins are woefully inadequate in terms of representing "real" bodies (they look like thin sheets of something)

Because of these limitations, I don't find the NAVSEA results conclusive in any way, but they are interesting. Just more fuel for one of the endless fires here at TFL. Flame away!

very respectfully,
Moose
 
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Glenn E. Meyer

New member
Training with many quality weapons trumps penetration tests or poll opinions.

Recall, I posted from John Holschen:

When it comes to preparing for individual security….
Amateurs think equipment,
Students think techniques,
Experts think tactics.
Click to expand...

Having trained a touch with handgun, rifle and shotgun - I view my training as more important than which of those I pick up. I have quality examples of each and quality SD ammo chosen for each.

No, I won't pick up my NAA 22S for the fight (unless that was all I had :D)
 
J

jrothWA

New member
It's a toss-up, when it happens (if it does) but..

know what's in your hand and how to use it!

Any firearm is better than none, the quickness and accuracy of response is better than delayed superior(?) response.

Any round for HD should be a "soft-nose / HP" type.

Best I can contribute.
 
C

C0untZer0

Moderator
The "bottom line" conclusion of the first link that you posted - Box of Truth "Educational Zone #143 - What Is the Best Weapon for Home Defense? - A Serious Discussion", is Rifles > Shotguns > Pistols.

The next four links that you posted are just penetration tests of walls - which is only one component in the overall decision making process for what someone would use for their primary HD weapon. So IMO the second set of 4 links does not "back up" the conclusions put forth in the first link.




.
 
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manta49

New member
I would only use a handgun for self defence if i had nothing else. For in the house shotgun pistol for backup. Pistols are only carried for self defence because of their concealability not their effectiveness.
 
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anonimoose

New member
Glenn E. Meyer

Training with many quality weapons trumps penetration tests or poll opinions.
Click to expand...

Very good point.

C0untZer0

The next four links that you posted are just penetration tests of walls - which is only one component in the overall decision making process for what someone would use for their primary HD weapon.
Click to expand...

Excellent point as well -- thank you.

Shooters, I apologize -- wasn't necessarily trying to start another pistol vs. rifle vs. shotgun debate (perhaps I should rename the thread). TFL is full of them; in January alone, we've had:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=476525
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=475482
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=476157
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=475975
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=473603

Was focusing more on how the bullets/rounds actually behave. Just trying to add to the body of knowledge here by sharing (though I realize I'm probably not the first to post the video) what I thought were some thought-provoking results from NAVSEA. With all the limitations of their set-up, I don't know if their results necessarily refute Box O Truth...but it was interesting nonetheless to see what they could do with a bigger budget (and range of weapons).

If anything, everything Box O Truth and NAVSEA have done just make me greatly appreciate the maxim/wisdom of many on this board, who emphasize that regardless of what type of firearm one uses for home defense, one is legally/morally responsible for every single bullet/round/pellet fired.
 
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Dwight55

New member
Personally, . . . I'm of the opinion that whatever you are the most competent with, . . . should be your HD weapon.

I would never want to be on the "wrong" end of one young man I know of who only grabs for his 5 shot .357 when the night has bumps. Anyone coming within his abilities (and they are surely good) is in for a bad dose of lead poison.

On the other hand, . . . I'm equally deft with my 1911 or AR, . . . but just do not feel comforty packin' my semi auto 7 shot 12 gauge.

Just my $.02

May God bless,
Dwight
 
H

hangglider

Moderator
There is something to be said for 30 continuous on-demand high velocity rounds. The AR's strength is it's weakness--and vice versa, IMO.

So lets say you get engaged in a firefight in low light or darkness. people moving about and "adrenaline finger" has combatants squeezing off multiple rounds very fast. Logic would seem to dictate that the outcome favors the person with the best first and last shot accessible with least manipulation(s). Familiarity and skill with a particular weapon may trump this--but it seems to me in a situation where skills or lack thereof are fairly evenly matched--the person with the AR has an advantage over the other types of weapons. This is just my guess--I'm no expert on any weapons experience.

The stigma against an AR could just as easily be applied to killer rounds used in other types of weapons, IMO. I don't think the high capacity is an issue in a good SD shoot--AS LONG AS you can state in a logical way why the successive rounds were in response to a continued perceived threat.

Again--these are merely armchair opinions.
 
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T

TexasJustice7

New member
I keep thinking about getting me a 12 G Pump Shotgun or else a pistol grip shotgun, but since I live in a 2 BR apartment, one way in, one way out, an intruder would be very close range. Its harder for him to grab for my handguns and I don't think I will miss at close range. My brother and I have had this discussion a lot because he really believes in shotguns, but he has a big house. I just know I won't miss at close range with my S&W 625-5 4" Long Colt 45.
 
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thump_rrr

New member
I'll take one of my pistols over my 14.5" barreled AR inside my home.
Weapon retention and the ability to clear corners more quickly are my prime considerations.
 
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Glenn E. Meyer

New member
Don't get a pistol grip shotgun. Look cool but not that useful as compared to a conventional stock. I'll pass on the big speech, trust me.

Like I said - training with each is more important.
 
K

kraigwy

New member
Training with many quality weapons trumps penetration tests or poll opinions.
Click to expand...

That kind of says it all.

The only thing I would add is "availability".

When I think of home invasions I think of someone kicking your door in and charging in. It that case I think availability trumps all.

Kind of hard to set around watching TV, playing around with the 'puter, eating dinner, etc with a rifle or shotgun in you pocket.

Not sure the bandit is going to give you time to run to the bed room to grab your "whatever".

I'm a much better rifle shot then pistol shot, but I don't set around with a rifle in my pocket. I do however always have my 642 in my pocket.

I don't worry about over or under penetration, I worry about getting my little revolver out of my pocket and hitting things at the distance presented in my modest size home. That's where I concentrate my pistol training.

Training is great, but why train (for home defense purposes) with a rifle or shotgun if you wont have one available when someone charges through the door?

Think about it, without moving, look around and "honestly" ask yourself if you can reach your self defense weapon.

Do you practice engaging targets from your couch or recliner at distances from where you set to your doors. Where is you closest loaded shotgun or rifle?

Can you draw your pistol/revolver from setting back in your recliner?

Its all about training and defense tactics with what you have available. How many have targets on your door and practice dry firing at it.

(I don't have one on my door, but I do have a hostage target on my granddaughters bedroom door, and dry fire at it with my laser sighted 642)

Some people think I'm nuts, maybe I am. People expect old men to be nuts so who cares.
 
H

hangglider

Moderator
@ Glenn (sorry)--with all due respect--why not (assuming you still have a stock for conventional shoulder resting and you're not doing any "shoot from the hip")?
@Kraig: "...People expect old men to be nuts so who cares. " Lechers too. :)
 
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lefteye

New member
I suspect Glenn assumed, just as I did, that you meant a pistol grip only shotgun rather than a shotgun with both a shoulder stock and pistol grip. From what I've read, a pistol grip only shotgun may as well be a single shot.
 
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Dwight55

New member
There is something to be said for 30 continuous on-demand high velocity rounds.
Click to expand...

Add to that, . . . the quickness of magazine changes, . . . another 30 coming down the pike, . . . plus I saw an ad not long ago for 60 rd mags, . . . put that in an AR-Pistol, . . . just plain scary.

The "lots of available rounds" and "quick mag changes" are the two main reasons I have always favored the 1911 and the AR.

Given a choice, . . . in an absolute fire fight, . . . I would certainly much rather have any high capacity 30 caliber rifle, . . . just never for HD, . . . especially if one has to clear even one room.

May God bless,
Dwight
 
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hangglider

Moderator
OK--here's what I don't get.

For the home defense scenarios we have all pretty much agreed that we are going to avoid clearing the home if at all possible. So chances are I'm not going to need to worry about creeping about worrying about breaking planes and the like. So if you're making a static stand--why not use the best option available?

I have all the weapons described in this discussion at my disposal. I keep most of them loaded at the ready. We've also agreed that most gunfights are likely to happen in dim light or night conditions. With an Eotec HUD holographic sight, a high-intensity surefire light and rounds that are as likely to splatter your target as anything else, I can't see the other weapons equaling an AR carbine in terms of CQB tactical advantage (assuming, of course, you know how to use it). Again, just my armchair guesses.
 
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Nanuk

New member
Glenn and Kraig are absolutely correct.

Training, training, training.

Practice, practice, practice.

That being said my HD gun is whichever pistol I have handy with whatever load is in it and my plain Jane Remington 870 with 7-1 oz slugs and six more on the side saddle.
 
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