Holding your pistol

[BJung]

Maybe you can try a few rounds for me since I don't go to the range often. Even though I can't go, it doesn't stop me from thinking about shooting.

I shoot my bow more often. I've found that finding the natural point of aim helps. For traditional archers this means placing your feet so when relaxed, your body points your aim at the target and the point of impact. This is done mostly by lifting your bow hand and pointing your arrow. But, I've discovered that it also works if I stand in a fighting position - the same as in a fight or surprised and ready to defend yourself - and extending your striking hand like a fist at the target. I've found my arrow's point of impact was better where my forefinger knuckle was pointed than my index finger knuckle. So, the setup would be to look away at the target, throw a punch without twisting your body and then see where your hand and knuckle is positioned. Change your footing. Then pickup your handgun and shoot. To me, the knife is a tool to increase the effect of our fist and the handgun is a machine that increase the lethality of the knife. The platform is the same. Our bodies platform is the same. That's what I'm theorizing now.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Aguila. Decades ago I read Brian Enos' book titled Practical shooting what little I remember from it is that he was a proponent of the isosceles hold. Am I correct to say that just as you fire your handgun one handed and allow the recoil to rise up by itself and settle back down to your nature point of aim which was at the target?

I have no idea what you just said there.

The handgun tends to rise up to the right and back down for me. For the isosceles hold, there is enough pressure by the support hand to support the handgun weight so it's evenly proportioned. The path of the handgun is now vertical or close to it.

I think that's a fair description of the isosceles hold as described by JohnKSa. My isosceles hold adds a push-pull component, which acts to reduce muzzle flip and recoil firearm rise, and contributes to getting back on target faster.

The same might be said of Albert League's weaver stance but the force is not balanced.

I don't think they are at all the same.

Most of what we do comes from our minds. What can you add?

It doesn't come from our minds. It comes primarily from muscle memory. That's why "Practice makes perfect" is lousy advice, because if you practice bad habits, you are perfecting bad habits. The more correct saying, IMHO, is, "Perfect practice makes perfect."

 

[pwc]

Have the student point at something on the distance with their off hand, arm semi-straight out. They will use their "pointy " finger. Then have them do the same thing with the thumb of their off hand. They can feel the forearm muscles tighten as the thumb goes straight out. Have them open their hand while still pointing, and with their gun hand, have them make a fist like they are holding a gun.

Put the gun hand fist in the curved palm of their off hand and then grip the gun hand with the off hand, all the while keeping the off thumb pointed at the distant object (target).

Keeping the offhand thumb pointed toward the target, pretensions the off hand to support the gun arn thru isometeric tension.

And no one kicked sand in Charles Atlas's face again.

 

[BJung]

Charles Atlas! pwc, you're giving away your age.

 

[JohnKSa]

I have been using an isosceles stance with a push-pull hold for a couple of decades. I have not noticed any tendency for the support arm to bend.

Interesting. Part of the point of the blading of the Weaver and the Modified Weaver is to allow the support arm to bend more than the strong hand arm to set up the tension between the strong hand pushing and the support hand pulling.

In the Weaver, the strong side arm is bent, but not as much as the support arm, and in the Modified Weaver, the strong-side arm is straight, or nearly so and the support arm is bent slightly to accommodate the slight blading and to better create the push-pull tension.

I've never heard the true Isosceles taught with a push-pull integrated--maybe you should give it a name and call it your own invention.

Have you tried timed trials with your "Push-Pull Isosceles" vs. the Weaver, Modified Weaver and True Iscosceles to see what kind of differences you encounter?

 

[pwc]

Burbank- Aguila started it...there are at least 3 on here that know Charles Atlas....

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Have you tried timed trials with your "Push-Pull Isosceles" vs. the Weaver, Modified Weaver and True Iscosceles to see what kind of differences you encounter?

Nope.

What I did notice was that on my first time back at the range after several months of self-isolation (hiding out from COVID-19), my "groups" were more like shotgun patterns. Then I realized that I was just holding the gun up there with both arms supporting the weight, but not push-pulling. As soon as I added the push-pull, the group sizes once again became groups, small enough that I wasn't ashamed to let anyone see my targets.

 

[BJung]

I suppose "size matters" but in the opposite sense.

I suppose the size depends on how you hold it. Everyone is different.

 

[wahsben]

The wedge hold explained by Mas Ayoob https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsdiP-M5O8g&t=7s

 

[Rangerrich99]

The tea cup method might be okay for precision shooting, where time isn't a factor, especially for follow-up shots. I wouldn't use/teach it for any type of close quarters defensive type shooting though. you want to have as solid a grip as possible, IMO.

Btw, if you watch Rob Leatham's "Aiming is Useless!" video, if you do what he says, it feels like 'push-pull,' even though he doesn't advocate it specifically. In fact, IIRC, he doesn't think much of the 'push-pull' method at all.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Btw, if you watch Rob Leatham's "Aiming is Useless!" video, if you do what he says, it feels like 'push-pull,' even though he doesn't advocate it specifically. In fact, IIRC, he doesn't think much of the 'push-pull' method at all.

Citing Rob Leatham is cheating.

Have you ever met Rob? I was introduced to him at the SHOT Show a couple of years ago. I'm not a small guy, but he made me feel like a pipsqueak. At a guess, I'll estimate that he's probably 6'-4" tall and must weigh in at 250 to 270 pounds. He's a natural athlete -- one of his bios said he was a basketball player in high school and college. And, like all the other pro shooters I've met at various shot shows, his wrists and forearms are huge. A guy like that doesn't need to think about push-pull, because he effectively overpowers the gun just by picking it up.

The rest of us mere mortals, on the other hand, have to deal with recoil control.

 

[Rangerrich99]

Citing Rob Leatham is cheating.

Have you ever met Rob? I was introduced to him at the SHOT Show a couple of years ago. I'm not a small guy, but he made me feel like a pipsqueak. At a guess, I'll estimate that he's probably 6'-4" tall and must weigh in at 250 to 270 pounds. He's a natural athlete -- one of his bios said he was a basketball player in high school and college. And, like all the other pro shooters I've met at various shot shows, his wrists and forearms are huge. A guy like that doesn't need to think about push-pull, because he effectively overpowers the gun just by picking it up.

The rest of us mere mortals, on the other hand, have to deal with recoil control.

Haha, no I haven't had that pleasure yet. I have a friend that has shot with him before, and he's told me about just how physically intimidating Rob can be.

As for the video, I think he even says something like, "forget about push-pull, or squeeze it like a" whatever, but I found that if I followed his fundamental instructions, gripped, stood, etc. the way he said to, it feels like push-pull to me.

I know I reference Rob a lot; but his videos made such a big difference in my shooting I feel like I need to share his wisdom as often as possible to help others that were in the same place I was not that long ago.

 

[HiBC]

Jerry Miculek

I don't doubt folks here are giving you their best opinon. I also don't doubt most of them can outshoot me. But I'm not telling anyone to shoot my way.

I'm just suggesting that if you listen to what this Gentleman is taking the time to teach us...Well,it would be hard to say he is wrong,or that anything I do would work better than what he does.

He specifically addresses push/pull and the Weaver stance. He then says "We don't do that anymore"

You might disagree,but he is not wrong,and he can back it up.

He made this video to answer the OP (Its Jerry Miculek)

https://youtu.be/ChSazF41q-s

 

[zincwarrior]

This is the general grip that is taught. There are derivatives where the weak hand has a finger on the guard and there is a knuckle corrective technique that is similar (wedge hold noted above). The actual grip will be dependant on the pistol and hand size.

Stoeger method-
1. Weak hand grips [very strongly]. Trigger hand is much more loose. This help helps correct drift left on shooting and reduces follow up time for tighter splits.

2. Shooting hand should be choked up high as humanly possible on the grip. This reduces muzzle flip. One way to do that is practice a draw where your hand is moving slightly forward as it comes down and naturally lands high on the grip.

3. If shooting one handed, have the opposite hand gripping tightly. Sympathetic nervous system means your shooting hand will then typically be gripping tightly.

 

[JustJake]

"Push-pull" technique all day. It's how the Pros-in-the-know do it.

Don"t be an amateur.

 

[Mike38]

You guys use two hands to hold a handgun? It's called a handgun, not a handsgun. Hey, just a little jab from a Bullseye Pistol competitor.

 

[BJung]

I watched the Jerry Miculek video. What does "lock left hand over center mean". Can you clarify what a locked wrist is? Just make your wrist stiff?

 

[HiBC]

You point the fingers of the left hand downward at about a 45 deg angle. As far as your tendons allow.Your left thumb will position pointed approx at the target,

That does not mean aiming the gun with the left thumb.It just is where the thumb will end up.

Close the fingers around the right hand.Squeeze.Look at the post # 34 pic

 

[HiBC]

JustJake

"Push-pull" technique all day. It's how the Pros-in-the-know do it.

Don"t be an amateur.

Well,Jerry Miculek IS a "Pro-in-the-know"

Watch the vid linked in post #33.

If you want to get right to your point,advance to 4 min 15 sec.

 

[BJung]

Push-pull/lock lft hand over center

The push pull is not a push at the target with my pistol gripping the handgun and a pull straight back 90 degrees toward me.

Instead, it's a push pull with pistol gripping hand toward the target and the supporting hand wrapped around the former as in the picture but towards me BUT with a 45 degree pressure on the pistol grip. This is what holds the muzzle down. I am guessing that the hand that grips the pistol does not pull forward down 45 degrees.