Holding a Sixgun

[Driftwood Johnson]

I don't know. I haven't figured out what is going on.
It has never been an issue for me.

Well, I can tell you where it comes from with me. In my early days of CAS I noticed one guy was wrapping a band aide around the knuckle of his middle finger. I asked him why and he told me it was to keep the trigger guard from whacking his knuckle so hard.

That's when I started curling my pinky under the grip to open up some space between my knuckle and the trigger guard.

Maybe in the spring I will try cramming my entire hand onto the grip with my knuckle pressed against the trigger guard and see if my Black Powder 45 Colt loads whack my knuckle.

 

[44 AMP]

With black powder power level loads, its not very likely. Its when you go beyond that (at least for me) that it shows up.

I was working with my then new Ruger Blackhawk .45 and the stock wooden grips. Never noticed anything out of the ordinary with factory loads (the standard load NOT the light cowboy stuff) but when I began pushing my handloads hotter, then it showed up.

it actually kind of snuck up on me, I had pushed some loads close to 1200fps and after firing a couple cylinders of those I noticed my middle finger hurt like hell, and I had no idea why. Figured it out quick enough, and while curling my pinky under the butt did help it added uncomfortable bending of my pinky as the gun rolled in my hand.

Oversize Pachmary grips solved both problems for me. Also backing down and making my standard load just about 1100fps helped, too.

I developed such a fondness for the oversize rubber that I put a set on my Super Blackhawk right after I got it, never tried shooting it with the wooden stock grips, and I've also put them on my .357 Blackhawk as well. Not really needed there, but it gives my SA's a uniform feel. I run the stock wood on my Single Six, no issues there, and there, I do sometimes use the pinky curl as its a matter of space on the grip, not the recoil.

I tend to hold the SA rather lightly, and make no attempt to keep it "locked in a shooting grip" during recoil. Sure, this does slow me down a bit, over the DA revolver shooter, but so does cocking the hammer and reacquiring a sight picture. I feel confident that if attacked I could defend myself with an SA revolver, but I don't carry one for self defense. For that, I carry a DA revolver or a semi auto.

 

[Tinker Pearce]

My hands are large enough that even fully choked up behind the trigger-guard there nowhere for my pinky to go but under the grip-frame. I usually curl it under from the side, but whatever works for you and your hand is the right way for you to do it.

 

[44 AMP]

Just out of curiosity, what size glove do you wear??

The original SA grip shape and usual size comes down to us from the 1860s, and while there have always been larger men, back then most men were smaller than many today.

Depending on who makes it, I wear an 8, (really too tight) 8.5 (nicely snug) or a 9 (work glove), and I find the stock grips a bit small, but do fine with "oversize" grips on my Rugers.

 

[RickB]

There was an article in American Handgunner about gripping/shooting single actions, and it described the trigger finger passing through the trigger guard, contacting the thumb, and firing the gun was a matter of squeezing together the tip of the finger and tip of the thumb, which I'd never heard of, but was presented like, "How have you managed to do it the wrong way for so long, when this method has been around forever?"

 

[44 AMP]

Some years back I saw an article that told us the "right" way to shoot an SA was with the thumb of the shooting hand resting on the recoil shield.

Some years back I also saw a lot of signs saying "vote for Hillary".

I put both of these in the same category.

 

[jackmoser65]

Just out of curiosity, what size glove do you wear??

The original SA grip shape and usual size comes down to us from the 1860s, and while there have always been larger men, back then most men were smaller than many today.

Depending on who makes it, I wear an 8, (really too tight) 8.5 (nicely snug) or a 9 (work glove), and I find the stock grips a bit small, but do fine with "oversize" grips on my Rugers.

That does nothing to explain the Walker and Dragoons that preceded the Navy or the 1860 Army that followed it.

I wear an XL glove and the Navy grip works fine for me using the technique described in the video.

using the other hand to cock the gun isn't what I consider one hand shooting.

You might consider it only one hand holding the gun, but you ARE using BOTH hands to shoot it.

That depends on how exactly the weak hand it being used. Is it being used only to cock the hammer or is it also being used for support? Either is possible.

 

[stinkeypete]

Jack correctly points out that it depends on the grips.

I shoot one handed and the Ruger Bisley grip is my great preference. I don't need to adjust my grip after recoil as the backstrap is much more vertical.

My stance is the "natural stance". To get this, you close your eyes and aim at the target. Open your eyes. Rather than move your hand to adjust left/right, move your FEET. When you naturally point to the target, when the gun lifts your arm and rocks you back, when your arm comes back down you should be right back on target... only adjusting up/down. After a while, you know the stance instinctively, like shooting a shotgun. Of course you aim (unlike a shotgun), but you're already close.

Holding the gun with two hands messes this up for me. Perhaps it's I don't practice that way? Anyways and ironically, I much preferred to shoot hand cannons with one hand as two handed shoved me back too much as my arms could not swing high.

With the "plow handle" grips, the gun rotates in my hand such that I need to fuss a bit to re-establish my grip.

With a Bearcat, there is no way to get a whole hand around those little grips!

It's a reminder to me, though.. just what a little gem the Bearcat is.

 

[Hawg]

I'm a pinky curler. My left hand never touches the gun unless I'm loading or unloading. Do I have to readjust my grip? I honestly don't know. I never thought about it.

 

[44 AMP]

That does nothing to explain the Walker and Dragoons that preceded the Navy or the 1860 Army that followed it.

Not quite sure what you mean, explain what???

I wear an XL glove and the Navy grip works fine for me using the technique described in the video.

Thanks for the answer, but XL tells me nothing beyond Xtra large.

Been thinking about the discussion a bit, and I got to wondering, WHY some people feel it a bad thing to adjust your grip between shots when shooting an SA revolver (recreationally).

Oh look! he had to adjust his grip!! I guess I just don't get it. With an SA revolver. I shoot SA, DA, revolvers, semi autos and single shots
in calibers ranging from .22LR to .45-70. Many of those guns allow me to "lock" the gun in my hand, and my grip doesn't need to shift. With an SA revolver, (and I'm talking about guns with recoil, not .22s) the gun shifts in my hand when it fires. I believe it is supposed to! In between the muzzle pointing to the sky, hauling it back down to get another sight picture, and reaching up to cock the gun with the shooting hand thumb, then putting that thumb back down on the grip, how can you NOT "be guilty" of adjusting your grip??

I feel no guilt at all about it. I think it's part of the SA revolver shooting experience. If you think that's a bad thing, you're welcome to your opinion, though I wil, respectfully, disagree.

 

[jackmoser65]

Not quite sure what you mean, explain what???

If the reason for the Navy grip's size is that people were smaller back then, why did the Walker, Dragoon and 1860 have such longer grips?

Thanks for the answer, but XL tells me nothing beyond Xtra large.

You said you wear a large. I said I wear an XL. We can assume that my hand is larger than yours and yet, the Navy grip works just fine for me. What I'm getting at with all this is that the Navy grip was not designed for small hands. It was designed for the pinky to be curled under for better control.

Been thinking about the discussion a bit, and I got to wondering, WHY some people feel it a bad thing to adjust your grip between shots when shooting an SA revolver (recreationally).

It's unnecessary movement and in my opinion, not the way they were designed. These were all originally designed as fighting pistols. Not for just casually making noise at the range.

In between the muzzle pointing to the sky, hauling it back down to get another sight picture, and reaching up to cock the gun with the shooting hand thumb, then putting that thumb back down on the grip, how can you NOT "be guilty" of adjusting your grip??

All due respect but you're having to shift your grip to cock the gun because you're using those atrocious rubber grips that lower your hand on the gun. It puts the hammer out of reach. It also increases muzzle rise.

 

[Webleymkv]

I find that curling my pinky under the grip is the most comfortable way to shoot a SA revolver, but I also have large hands (XL gloves) and I've not shot many that aren't particularly hard recoiling. My own bigbore SA is a Ruger Blackhawk .44 Special which is fed almost exclusively my own handloaded "Skeeter Skelton" loads of 7.5 gr Unique under a 250 gr Lyman 429421 "Keith" bullet. From my revolver's 5 1/2" barrel, this load chronographs at roughly 1050 fps so it's a pretty good approximation of a full-power .45 Long Colt Black Powder load. With this gun an ammunition, I've never had a problem with the trigger guard hitting my knuckles or causing any pain. This has also not been an issue shooting full-power 210 gr factory ammunition from my younger brother's 6 1/2" .41 Magnum Blackhawk, but that's about the most powerful SA revolver I've ever shot more than a cylinder full of ammunition through (the only issue I had with my brother's .41 was the checkered factory grip was like a cheese grater rolling in my hand, both his and my Blackhawks now wear smooth grips). The only other SA revolvers I own and shoot regularly are a pair of Heritage Rough Riders in .22 LR or .22 Magnum depending on which cylinder I'm using and obviously recoil simply isn't an issue with the .22's.

 

[balin]

Suggesting people start shooting SA with their pinky curled underneath seems quite reasonable as it works for many. People will always find out what doesn't work for them.

 

[44 AMP]

If the reason for the Navy grip's size is that people were smaller back then, why did the Walker, Dragoon and 1860 have such longer grips?

Since I won't be privy to Samuel Colts thoughts on why he designed what he did the way he did until/unless I meet him in the afterlife and we discuss it, I can't say for sure. I suspect that since the Walker, Dragoon, and 1860 are larger and heavier than the Navy, a larger grip frame was used to aid in using them.

What I'm getting at with all this is that the Navy grip was not designed for small hands. It was designed for the pinky to be curled under for better control.

I did not say the Navy grip was designed for small hands. I believe Colt designed it for the "average" user and remarked how, on average people were smaller back then.

The original SA grip shape and usual size comes down to us from the 1860s, and while there have always been larger men, back then most men were smaller than many today.

And, I respectfully disagree with your opinion that it was designed to use with the pinky under the butt. There is no question it can be used that way, but I don't think it was designed for that.

I spoke with a friend who is very knowledgeable about old west and Civil War history who is firmly convinced that the pinky under the butt method was popularized by one of the early top Cowboy Action shooters, and while I have no idea if he is right about that, or not, I know he is right about not being able to find any reference to that method in Colt manuals, Union or US Army instruction manuals, period photographs or woodcuts, and no mention of it in the writings of old west lawmen or gunfighters, or in anything I've read by Keith or Skelton. Not saying nobody did it, back then, but if people did, nobody seems to have written about it or gotten any pictures.

This leads me to doubt the guns were designed with pinky under the butt in mind.

It's unnecessary movement and in my opinion, not the way they were designed. These were all originally designed as fighting pistols.

I agree they were all originally designed as fighting pistols. What I disagree with is the idea that movement of the gun in the hand being unnecessary was something Colt considered. I think this is a case of applying 20th century "wisdom" to a 19th century design.

All due respect but you're having to shift your grip to cock the gun because you're using those atrocious rubber grips that lower your hand on the gun. It puts the hammer out of reach. It also increases muzzle rise.

With all due respect, I think you've got that flat wrong.
Those "atrocious rubber grips" are what I like and prefer, they make the gun more comfortable to hold and shoot, for me, and they have the exact opposite effect on muzzle rise, they help reduce it, not increase it.

Also, I'm shooting Ruger new Model Blackhawks and Super Blackhawk, not Colt SAA's or clones. most of them with 7.5" barrels, as I've let my shorter barrel Vaqueros go, recently.

 

[jackmoser65]

Again, if hands were smaller then, why would they need the longer grip on the horse pistols and 1860? The logic just doesn't track.

When you spend as much time as I have learning speed with a single action, when you actually shoot these guns as you would in a gunfight or when hunting dangerous game, you understand that the grip really doesn't need to move in your hand if you need to get things done in a hurry.

Not flat wrong, basic mechanics. The grip places your hand lower on the gun, that is a fact. Placing the hand lower on the gun also lowers the fulcrum around which it rotates during recoil. This results in increased leverage the gun has against the shooter and that translates to greater muzzle rise. Basic geometry and physics.

It is also basic geometry that if you place the hand lower on the gun, you're moving your thumb further away from the hammer.

Rugers or Colts makes no difference in this context.

 

[44 AMP]

Not flat wrong, basic mechanics. The grip places your hand lower on the gun, that is a fact. Placing the hand lower on the gun also lowers the fulcrum around which it rotates during recoil. This results in increased leverage the gun has against the shooter and that translates to greater muzzle rise. Basic geometry and physics.

your engineering skills are laudable, and, mechanically correct, However, you are not factoring in the real world result that the soft rubber Pachmayr grips also act as a brake, reducing the amount of rotation in the hand over what the stock smooth wood grips do. This translates to REDUCED muzzle rise, not increased muzzle rise.

 

[jackmoser65]

This is under the basic assumption that the grips shouldn't be sliding around in your hand in the first place.

 

[44 AMP]

"assumption"....

 

[jackmoser65]

As I said, the grip shouldn't be sliding through your hand in the first place. I "assume" people know that.

 

[44 AMP]

As I said, the grip shouldn't be sliding through your hand in the first place. I "assume" people know that.

With a semi auto, or a DA revolver I would agree, the grip shouldn't be sliding in your hand. With the typical "plowhandle" SA grip, I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree.

Merry Christmas!