tahunua001
New member
pretty sure in the hands of a navy seal, a ruger 10/22 could have been good enough to kill osama...
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HK416: Worth it or just a glorified AR?
- Thread starter kcub
- Start date
Tucker 1371
New member
You could buy literally almost anyone else's piston AR and have the same gun for $500-$1000 less. Sig, LWRC, and Ruger come to mind.
FWIW I think the M27 IAR (HK 416) would be a great general issue rifle, but being magazine fed and lacking a quick change barrel it makes a poor support fire weapon. Even with the SAW's reliability issues I would rather have it in a squad than an IAR.
FWIW I think the M27 IAR (HK 416) would be a great general issue rifle, but being magazine fed and lacking a quick change barrel it makes a poor support fire weapon. Even with the SAW's reliability issues I would rather have it in a squad than an IAR.
There are plenty of "good" drum and extended capacity magazines on the market for the AR. But... if you can't do it with a 30 round magazine (even a 20 round magazine), odds are a 60 round drum isn't going to change the equation much at all. If you just want a range toy, that's fine but 30 round magazines work well enough for dang near everything you need an M4 to do.
Or did you mean "cheap" drums and extended capacity magazines?
Of course you could always spend the money and go the belt fed route: http://www.defensereview.com/valkyr...select-firefull-auto-ar-into-a-true-light-ma/
Jimro
Or did you mean "cheap" drums and extended capacity magazines?
Of course you could always spend the money and go the belt fed route: http://www.defensereview.com/valkyr...select-firefull-auto-ar-into-a-true-light-ma/
Jimro
Tucker 1371
New member
Sharkbite, those Surefire mags, at least the ones they were making circa 2011, are total garbage. My squad leader had a 60 rounder and a 120, accidentally hit the mag release while getting into an MRAP and it hit the metal floorboard and spewed rounds all over the place, follower and springs came flying out with them.
I know there are "toys" but is there something that some military actually uses that's > 50 rounds?
No. There aren't. And there aren't for the very good reason that the military isn't using the M4 as a light machine gun. That is why every Infantry squad gets two M249 SAWs (AKA the FN MINIMI).
The USMC did push the H&K 416 into the M27 Infantry Automatic Rifle for the Squad Automatic Weapon role, although the M249 SAW will remain in the arms rooms. But even then, the USMC isn't giving up the 30 round magazines for the M27.
Jimro
I prefer my piston driven Daewoo K2.
I would consider the SCAR 16 if I didn't have the K2, but not at the price any SCAR sells.
The SCAR rifles are over priced.
I own both and I disagree.My light SCAR is the most accurate rifle I've ever fired; not that I've fired sniper rigs nor do I have sniper skills or training. But I can get ragged hole groups at 100 with my light SCAR.
I love my K2 but it's not a SCAR.
Depends on your use for the 416. The 416 is a piston driven M4. It gives you the reliability of the piston system and the ability to use M4/mil-spec mags. It also comes standard issue with a free float system.
It all depends on your use. Will you be joining a SEAL team on a raid, go for it!! The 416 is an all around better weapons platform. This has been shown by it's use by the Navy SEALs.
It is, by all means, NOT a glorified AR!
It all depends on your use. Will you be joining a SEAL team on a raid, go for it!! The 416 is an all around better weapons platform. This has been shown by it's use by the Navy SEALs.
It is, by all means, NOT a glorified AR!
Tucker 1371
New member
It gives you the reliability of the piston system and the ability to use M4/mil-spec mags.
Yeah, just not PMags. And no money left over to spend on the mags it DOES take. And the supposed increase in reliability over a DI gun, I have come to believe, is grossly overplayed. Especially after watching IraqVeteran8888 run a DI gun full auto with no stoppages until the barrel (not the gas tube) blew up. You shouldn't be using an AR type magazine fed rifle as a support fire weapon anyway (cough cough Marine Corps).
The SEALs use HK products because the JSOC/SOCOM dollar to manpower ratio is insane. It still blows my mind that the Corps found the money to blow on an HK gun (when all we really needed was a refit/refurb program for the SAW).
If you want a piston AR go ahead and get one, but at least give LWRC or some of the other makers a look before you drop $1000 extra for that little red "Hk" logo.
Mrgunsngear
New member
If you want a piston AR go ahead and get one, but at least give LWRC or some of the other makers a look before you drop $1000 extra for that little red "Hk" logo.
I get what you're saying but if you read the multiple military study results on this it's just not so. Also check out Henderson Defense's threads "High round count ARs" and their results mirror what .mil found. That said, no one here will put that type of round count through them so does it matter---probably not.
HK (or FN or somebody) should re-engineer the HK416 to optionally take a belt box.
Get the cost down for general issue. Now everybody gets a SAW. Or maybe not everybody but some higher mix that's practical. It seems like that would be something at least special forces would be interested in.
Get the cost down for general issue. Now everybody gets a SAW. Or maybe not everybody but some higher mix that's practical. It seems like that would be something at least special forces would be interested in.
Tucker 1371
New member
Kcub, you're on the right track. If they issued everyone an IAR then that would make up for the lack of sustained suppressive fire capability. But then we would be right back where we were in Vietnam with everyone wasting ammo. You'd have to double every Marine's ammo load out to make up for it.
The IAR is quite possibly one of the most ill advised ideas I've seen the Marine Corps put out in a while. Every time I've seen it used in person when working with infantry units the IAR gunners are almost always using in semi only. Why replace a machine gun with a DMR? That's essentially what they've done. SMH, at least my unit is too broke to have them, were still using M249s that went to Desert Storm, the receivers are probably 30 years old with almost certainly over 1 million rounds. And I'm ok with that.
The IAR is quite possibly one of the most ill advised ideas I've seen the Marine Corps put out in a while. Every time I've seen it used in person when working with infantry units the IAR gunners are almost always using in semi only. Why replace a machine gun with a DMR? That's essentially what they've done. SMH, at least my unit is too broke to have them, were still using M249s that went to Desert Storm, the receivers are probably 30 years old with almost certainly over 1 million rounds. And I'm ok with that.
HK (or FN or somebody) should re-engineer the HK416 to optionally take a belt box.
Get the cost down for general issue. Now everybody gets a SAW. Or maybe not everybody but some higher mix that's practical. It seems like that would be something at least special forces would be interested in.
No, just no.
Kcub, you're on the right track. If they issued everyone an IAR then that would make up for the lack of sustained suppressive fire capability. But then we would be right back where we were in Vietnam with everyone wasting ammo. You'd have to double every Marine's ammo load out to make up for it.
The IAR is quite possibly one of the most ill advised ideas I've seen the Marine Corps put out in a while. Every time I've seen it used in person when working with infantry units the IAR gunners are almost always using in semi only. Why replace a machine gun with a DMR? That's essentially what they've done. SMH, at least my unit is too broke to have them, were still using M249s that went to Desert Storm, the receivers are probably 30 years old with almost certainly over 1 million rounds. And I'm ok with that.
No, no it wouldn't.
The bulk of firepower at the Platoon level comes from the M240 machine guns. Army Platoons normally get two, and USMC Platoons three. The point of Squad Automatic Weapons is to give the Squad Leader enough assets to deal with a problem long enough to give the Platoon Leader (Army) or Platoon Commander (USMC) the time to maneuver the Platoon into position to deal with the problem. If you can't kill it with an M27 the odds of killing it with an M249 are also pretty darn low.
The Army chose to stick with the SAW, which is heavier is a true machine gun, and the USMC chose to go the lighter route. Before the M249 the Army went with the M16A1 in the Automatic Rifleman role for the Squads. It was the adoption of the SS109 and M249 that caused the Army to switch over. Of course back then we were still shooting M60s at the Platoon level.
War is a team sport, and loading every rifleman down with 800 rounds (a basic load for a SAW gunner, at least the last time I had to carry a basic load) is an insane amount of unnecessary weight for dismounted patrols/movement. Hell, most everyone will be carrying either extra mags, or extra drums for the SAWs or extra belts for the 240s. That all gets heavy really dang quick.
Anyways, if you are a raiding force, the M27 is fine. If you are a ground taking force, I'd still reach for the M249 for my Squads. The Army is firmly in the "ground taking force" category and the USMC can task organize either way (they kept the M249s in the inventory for a reason).
Jimro
Mrgunsngear
New member
The bulk of firepower at the Platoon level comes from the M240 machine guns. Army Platoons normally get two, and USMC Platoons three. The point of Squad Automatic Weapons is to give the Squad Leader enough assets to deal with a problem long enough to give the Platoon Leader (Army) or Platoon Commander (USMC) the time to maneuver the Platoon into position to deal with the problem. If you can't kill it with an M27 the odds of killing it with an M249 are also pretty darn low.
The Army chose to stick with the SAW, which is heavier is a true machine gun, and the USMC chose to go the lighter route. Before the M249 the Army went with the M16A1 in the Automatic Rifleman role for the Squads. It was the adoption of the SS109 and M249 that caused the Army to switch over. Of course back then we were still shooting M60s at the Platoon level.
War is a team sport, and loading every rifleman down with 800 rounds (a basic load for a SAW gunner, at least the last time I had to carry a basic load) is an insane amount of unnecessary weight for dismounted patrols/movement. Hell, most everyone will be carrying either extra mags, or extra drums for the SAWs or extra belts for the 240s. That all gets heavy really dang quick.
This is spot on.