HK416: Worth it or just a glorified AR?
- Thread starter kcub
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runningbear
New member
The FN SCAR 16s is the best piston AR type rifle IMHO a great shooting rifle and so simple to clean, once you get the hang of removing the piston. The bolt is a real heavy duty a lot better then the other AR types have. Everything about a SCAR is really well planned. Only downside is their higher costs.
Theohazard
New member
The SCAR is not an "AR-type rifle", it's an entirely different design from the ground up. Many people don't even consider the HK to be an AR, but at least the HK shares the same external appearance and has many of the same internal parts. But the SCAR doesn't look anything like an AR and doesn't share a single part with it other than the mag and the grip (and even then, most after-market AR grips won't work on the SCAR, and some polymer AR mags won't work with it either).runningbear said:
The MR556 (civilian version of the HK416) is a little heavy for my taste. The HK416 was designed for heavy-duty stuff like prolonged firefights with lots of full-auto fire, and that's just not something I feel the need for. The Marine Corps took the HK416, tweaked it slightly, and now uses it to fill the role of a light machine gun. That tells you something. If I was looking for a piston AR, I'd go with an LWRC.
As for the SCAR, I really like the design and how lightweight and ergonomic it is, though the reciprocating charging handle takes some getting used to. Luckily it's a self-correcting problem; trust me, when that charging handle catches your thumb, you take notice!
As for durability, the rental SCAR we have on our range gets shot a lot, and it just keeps going and going. When I eventually decide to get a non-AR semi-auto centerfire rifle, the SCAR will definitely be in consideration. My only worry is that I've heard some reports of the SCAR 16S occasionally having issues when suppressed, even on the lower gas setting. My buddy had one for a short while and he had two stoppages with it. It kind of soured him considering how flawlessly his Daniel Defense ran for him, so he sold the SCAR. I wish he had kept it long enough for us to determine exactly what was happening, but he thought it was due to the extra gas pressure of his Surefire silencer.
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It's been a while since I've seen this posted:
http://monsterhunternation.com/2007/10/09/hk-because-you-suck-and-we-hate-you/
http://monsterhunternation.com/2007/10/09/hk-because-you-suck-and-we-hate-you/
runningbear
New member
Posted by (Thehazzard)
The SCAR is not an "AR-type rifle", it's an entirely different design from the ground up. Many people don't even consider the HK to be an AR, but at least the HK shares the same external appearance and has many of the same internal parts. But the SCAR doesn't look anything like an AR and doesn't share a single part with it other than the mag and the grip (and even then, most after-market AR grips won't work on the SCAR, and some polymer AR mags won't work with it either).
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In the technical sense you are correct, i was only making a general statement not going in to any deep in depth exploration of the details.
Hope this clears up any misunderstanding.
Since i own a SCAR 16s also two AR-15 i understand the difference's in them.
As for Mags if one has the older Lancer AR-15 Mags with the green followers, they must be modified (removing some material) to be used without being damager by the bolts action. The newer Lancer Mags with the black followers are Ok and don't need any reworking.
The SCAR is not an "AR-type rifle", it's an entirely different design from the ground up. Many people don't even consider the HK to be an AR, but at least the HK shares the same external appearance and has many of the same internal parts. But the SCAR doesn't look anything like an AR and doesn't share a single part with it other than the mag and the grip (and even then, most after-market AR grips won't work on the SCAR, and some polymer AR mags won't work with it either).
=====
In the technical sense you are correct, i was only making a general statement not going in to any deep in depth exploration of the details.
Hope this clears up any misunderstanding.
Since i own a SCAR 16s also two AR-15 i understand the difference's in them.
As for Mags if one has the older Lancer AR-15 Mags with the green followers, they must be modified (removing some material) to be used without being damager by the bolts action. The newer Lancer Mags with the black followers are Ok and don't need any reworking.
I was issued a 416 for one of my contracts. I was not super impressed. It never hiccuped, but it was a little front heavy and didnt suppress as well as the DI gun the DoS issued me later on another job.
My current gun is a 10.5" DI gun and i dont want to go back to a piston
My current gun is a 10.5" DI gun and i dont want to go back to a piston
I don't really see how a 416, much less the neutered MR556 could be considered worth the money to a civilian. The 416 was developed for increased reliability and rate of fire in a prolonged firefight which is somewhat lacking in DI AR's. That being said some folks to whom money is no object, like to have the absolute best rifle made, and the Hk rifle is a contender.
tahunua001
New member
glorified AR,
they put a piston on it, it doesn't poop where it eats, double the price instantly.
heckler and koch makes it, double the price instantly
it's full-auto quadruple the price instantly
there's now a semi only variant... yeah just leave the price the same.
they put a piston on it, it doesn't poop where it eats, double the price instantly.
heckler and koch makes it, double the price instantly
it's full-auto quadruple the price instantly
there's now a semi only variant... yeah just leave the price the same.
The Army took a long and hard look at the HK416, XM8, FN SCAR, and a Robinson Arms offering and stuck with the M4 platform.
When you are arguing that 1,800 mean rounds between failures is somehow so much more better than 1,600 mean rounds between failures to justify double the price, it's a bit of a stretch in my opinion.
The area where the HK416 or other piston driven rifles do better is with traditional suppressor designs which have significant back pressure that speeds up the DI pulse on an M4. So if you wanted to go the stamp collecting route and shoot your rifle a lot with a traditional baffle suppressor the HK416 will serve you better.
But as far as reliability or accuracy of the base rifle? I'd still just recommend an M4 clone by a reputable manufacturer or even assemble your own.
Jimro
When you are arguing that 1,800 mean rounds between failures is somehow so much more better than 1,600 mean rounds between failures to justify double the price, it's a bit of a stretch in my opinion.
The area where the HK416 or other piston driven rifles do better is with traditional suppressor designs which have significant back pressure that speeds up the DI pulse on an M4. So if you wanted to go the stamp collecting route and shoot your rifle a lot with a traditional baffle suppressor the HK416 will serve you better.
But as far as reliability or accuracy of the base rifle? I'd still just recommend an M4 clone by a reputable manufacturer or even assemble your own.
Jimro
Jimro, I would STRONGLY disagree. Having used both a DI gun and a 416 suppressed overseas. I'd take (and currently use) a DI gun.
While it's true a DI gun with a can has more back pressure, the gun runs just fine. With a piston system you eliminate that extra pressure, BUT the noise from the piston port makes the gun much louder.
Additionally, the extra weight forward PLUS the can makes the 416 muzzle heavy.
My 10.5" DI gun is much better balanced then the 416 I used to use.
Strongly disagree all you want, it's a free country.
If you are talking about the mechanical sound of the action cycling, yeah you got me there, the piston system will be louder. But it will also not leave your face looking like a chimney sweep from "Mary Poppins" either. Of course if you are worried about the "clack clack" of a suppressed piston rifle giving away your position, you've made some very questionable life choices to get to that point.
I'm not calling you a liar, but even using a can optimized for DI systems you are more likely than not going to get a faceful of hot gas. http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread...a-lot-of-gas-in-the-face-even-with-gas-buster If you are in a "carry a lot, shoot little" situation where your life depends on carrying a rifle a lot, a puff of carbon to the face is going to be the least of your concerns.
Here is a slow motion video of a low back pressure suppressor design (OSS) and a traditional baffle suppressor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35q4hx6IdCk
As far as balance goes the piston will be more nose heavy, no doubt about that. Of course the new M4A1 with heavy barrel profile is also noticeably more nose heavy than the old M4. Doesn't mean much for "carry lots shoot little" type combat other than more weight means more fatigue.
But, since we aren't talking about playing in the two way live fire exercise, I stand by my opinion, the HK416 is better shooting suppressed with a traditional baffled suppressor. I still wouldn't buy one for that purpose myself, I'd rather save my money and just deal with the carbon to the face. But, if you are having someone else buy the gear for a two way live fire exercise, just have them purchase an OSS or two and have the best of all worlds.
Jimro
If you are talking about the mechanical sound of the action cycling, yeah you got me there, the piston system will be louder. But it will also not leave your face looking like a chimney sweep from "Mary Poppins" either. Of course if you are worried about the "clack clack" of a suppressed piston rifle giving away your position, you've made some very questionable life choices to get to that point.
I'm not calling you a liar, but even using a can optimized for DI systems you are more likely than not going to get a faceful of hot gas. http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread...a-lot-of-gas-in-the-face-even-with-gas-buster If you are in a "carry a lot, shoot little" situation where your life depends on carrying a rifle a lot, a puff of carbon to the face is going to be the least of your concerns.
Here is a slow motion video of a low back pressure suppressor design (OSS) and a traditional baffle suppressor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35q4hx6IdCk
As far as balance goes the piston will be more nose heavy, no doubt about that. Of course the new M4A1 with heavy barrel profile is also noticeably more nose heavy than the old M4. Doesn't mean much for "carry lots shoot little" type combat other than more weight means more fatigue.
But, since we aren't talking about playing in the two way live fire exercise, I stand by my opinion, the HK416 is better shooting suppressed with a traditional baffled suppressor. I still wouldn't buy one for that purpose myself, I'd rather save my money and just deal with the carbon to the face. But, if you are having someone else buy the gear for a two way live fire exercise, just have them purchase an OSS or two and have the best of all worlds.
Jimro
Theohazard
New member
There are several ways to significantly lower the gas in your face with a suppressed DI rifle, but I've never shot a setup that completely eliminated it (I've never shot the OSS silencers, and even if they work 100% as intended, the design doesn't interest me). But the gas in your face isn't that big of a deal to many people, besides, you get gas in your face with a piston AR too, it's just less.
The argument between DI and short-stroke piston with silencers is not about which is better per se, it's about the pros and cons of each. The piston will have less back pressure and will usually be a lot easier to adjust thanks to the piston settings. The DI will quieter and usually less front heavy.
I prefer DI guns with and without a suppressor, but lots of people prefer piston guns for the reasons I stated.
The argument between DI and short-stroke piston with silencers is not about which is better per se, it's about the pros and cons of each. The piston will have less back pressure and will usually be a lot easier to adjust thanks to the piston settings. The DI will quieter and usually less front heavy.
I prefer DI guns with and without a suppressor, but lots of people prefer piston guns for the reasons I stated.
My experience is not in protracted engagements. More the "shoot and scoot" type events. Lots of shooting from vehicles, so gas in the face is minimized by airflow.
Suppressed noise is not a matter of giving away your position (at least in my line of work). If I have to press the trigger, the bad guys know where I'm at. It's more a matter of remaining able to clearly communicate with teammates and other vehicle occupants
In dismounted engagements it's all about getting off the X and getting to the vehicles. Again, communication is the key, so a quieter rifle matters. In a protracted fight from a static position gas in the face might be more of a problem. As soon as you start moving dynamically, I've never had a problem with gas blowback
Suppressed noise is not a matter of giving away your position (at least in my line of work). If I have to press the trigger, the bad guys know where I'm at. It's more a matter of remaining able to clearly communicate with teammates and other vehicle occupants
In dismounted engagements it's all about getting off the X and getting to the vehicles. Again, communication is the key, so a quieter rifle matters. In a protracted fight from a static position gas in the face might be more of a problem. As soon as you start moving dynamically, I've never had a problem with gas blowback
Model12Win
Moderator
It was good enough to kill Obama.
It will be good enough for you.
It will be good enough for you.
Model12Win
Moderator
DOH! I have been reading to much news lately. I meant "Osama" as in "Osama Bin Laden".