Help jog my memory RE: S&W .38 revolver

[Blackhawk]

KR,

No lanyard loop.

That would've helped answer a question that bothered me some early on, "How can I be sure the pistol is still with me after I end up on the ground?" Once it sunk in that it was just a suicide pistol, I didn't worry about it since I had no intention of using it.

 

[James K]

Well, the M41 ammo was definitely .38 Special. The only difference was a FMJ round nose bullet and a very tough case with crimped primer, the very devil to reload.

While the books all say that .38 S&W caliber revolvers and ammo were not issued to U.S. forces (the ammo was never adopted by the U.S.), I certainly can't say that some were not issued in VN. I know VN vets who carried Swedish K-guns, and Browning A5s, which sure were not standard issue either, but somehow were "acquired" and in some cases were handed out from arms rooms.

I never heard of the military acquiring any, but thousands of .38 S&W Victory Models were rechambered to .38 Special in the 50's to make them easier to sell. Those guns would accept both calibers, though the .38 Special cases bulged a bit at the rear.

Jim

 

[firecapt7]

M41 was the S&W38cal, MODEL 15, adj sights/4"barrel/ we only issued a few in my unit. most officers, radio operators and gun commanders chose the M1911A1, but would want the model 15 as a back up weapon when we left on operations.
we had them listed as pistol team equipment, and the ammo also known as M41, and why we had pistol team equipment in an artillary battery is still unkown to me. we had 25 S&W model 10s as well.
most units that i was assigned to had the M41 and the model 10, but they were never issued out unless there was a request from and officer or staff NCO.

 

[bountyh]

The Air Police who were in the US Air Force used standard issue SW .38 spcl revolvers for many years (I saw them in 1960). It was blue-steel 4" barrel six shooter. I remember it clearly because there was a cartoon on the wall showing an AP (air police) standing next to an MP (military police for the Army) and the caption read:

"Ha - ha! We got cowboy guns and you don't!"

 

[Radicalcleric]

OK Blackhawk, now I don't know what you are talking about. Maybe you do, but I am lost. You seem to be talking about .38 and .38 Special. But as I noted previously, while there are several different .38 caliber revolver cartridges that have been produced (the .38 S&W, also known as the .38 British or .38/200 and the .38 Special are by far the two most popular), only the .38 Special (I will repeat this) ONLY THE .38 SPECIAL was issued by the U.S. Military during the 20th Century. If you were told that your gun was not a .38 Special, then I have no idea what it was, where you got it, why you had it, or why you didn't have a .38 Special as this what everybody else in U.S. military with a revolver at that time was issued.

(This is assuming that the gun was issued to you and not given to you by a buddy. Any manner of gun could have been, and was, carried by military personnel in Vietnam who acquired them by means other than by being issued. If this gun was picked up somewhere other than through official channels, then it could have been anything and we will never know for sure.)

On the one hand you are seeking input, but then you reject any info that is offered. If you are so sure why are you asking for help? Maybe all you want is an argument?

Thank you for your service to your contry, BTW, but I see no point in continuing this discussion. I am certain you had a M&P in .38 Special but you seem dissatisfied with this answer. I fear that I have nothing more to offer on the subject.

 

[Blackhawk]

SaxonPig,

Don't know how your knickers got twisted, so sorry 'bout that.

The same make & model revolvers were issued to all aircrew at the supply room along with 6 rounds of ammo that looked almost exactly like the current WInchester .38 S&W lead round nose that definitely were not in .38 Special casings.

The revolver was stamped ".38 caliber", and nowhere on it did it indicate ".38 special." The cylinder was short so that the ends of the bullets were slightly recessed in the cylinder when loaded.

There was constant griping within the company about the Slow & Wimpy guns we were expected to defend ourselves with, that it was just slightly better than a .32, and that the gun couldn't even handle .38 special ammo.

I wanted to know what the model of the gun was because I can't find any authoritative reference to it as anything except ".38 revolver" on the TOE of my unit or any other Army aviation unit.

When you come along and say it was a ".38 Special" because of yadda, yadda..., you're throwing a conclusion in contrary to the facts without any softening qualifiers. Now you're mad because I'm not bowing to your vast knowledge because I know different facts from those you're merely guessing about. If you don't know of any .38 caliber revolvers being issued to Army pilots, all you had to do was say so. You don't have to make dogmatic, categorical, and offensive statements like:

The US military never issued any revolver other than the .38 Special caliber....

I am positive the revolver you had was a S&W M10 Military and Police Model in .38 Special....

I am also sure that the ammo was the 130 grain full metal jacket .38 Special.....

Anybody who'd say that the Army never did something or other doesn't know much about the Army. The only way somebody can be positive about something is if they were a first hand witness to the events. The only reason you're "sure" about the ammo is because it's a conclusion drawn from your other conclusions.

If you're right, and the Army was NOT AUTHORIZED to issue anything less than a .38 Special but yet it did in a by-all-appearences "official" manner, then that's just something else to go into the research hopper.

 

[Chuck McDonald]

AF vs Army

Blackhawk Commented:

It fascinates me that there are ubiquitous references to the ".38 caliber revolver" issued to Vietnam era U.S. pilots, but nobody seems to know exactly what guns those were.

I don't think there is much question what the AF air crews carried... the AF bought M15s and M50 S&W Revolvers with a possibility of a few older acquisitions.

The Army is another matter. The standard issue sidearm for the Army was the M1911/M1911A1 pistol. When we hear ARMY aviators being issued S&W revolvers it is of interest. The Army had not bought significant numbers of S&W (or Colt's for that matter) revolvers since WW II.

The actual disposition of the Army M&P is not clear. Some were sold as surplus after WW II...but exactly how many is not clear.

From the point of view of S&W collectors, it would be interesting to confirm exactly what revolver was actually used in Viet Nam.

FWIW

Chuck

 

[Chuck McDonald]

Never Say Never?

To say the U.S. Military "NEVER" issued a revolver in other than .38 Spl. is not accurate.

The U.S. Military has issued .38 Colt, .44s, .45 Colt's, .45 ACP (and in limited standard) .357 Mag.

Having noted that, I would agree it exceptionally unlikely any .38 other than .38 S&W Special would have been issued. I do KNOW the U.S. Military did NOT procure any .38 round other than the .38 Spl. in the Viet Nam War time frame.

Unfortunately, as all of us get older our memory fades as to facts and details.... it is particularly easy when one's attention is distracted to much more important things as well.

FWIW

Chuck

 

[Blackhawk]

There's always the possibility that the Army didn't "officially" issue or acquire the revolvers. We often acquired equipment by trading or "local acquisition" where the paperwork said something that didn't match the actual stuff at all. In our unit there was a need for only 75 "aircrew revolvers" if somebody decided that it was preferable to the M1911A1 in that particular case, so it's hardly something that would have been on the acquisition radar screen.

That could also explain the ammo situation. The 6 rounds I was issued were not "new", and after 2 years of pocket and handling wear, they looked the same when I turned them in. IOW, they could have had a long history before I ever got them. In addition, there was NO pressure to head to the range to meet the "weapons currency training" requirements. Maybe that ammo was hard to get...?

I'm going to proceed on that theory to identify the revolver. It wasn't a Victory revolver because the butt looked more like a Model 10 and without a lanyard ring. In fact, the whole revolver looked like a Model 10 with a short cylinder.