Help jog my memory RE: S&W .38 revolver

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Blackhawk

New member
During the Vietnam War, some Army pilots were typically issued a Smith & Wesson .38 caliber revolver. I carried one for 2 years but never did find out the exact designation of it, OR I just can't remember it.

Now I'm driving myself nuts trying to find out exactly what it was. There are a pot full of Model 10s, but they all seem to be .38 Special instead of plain old stick-it-in-your-mouth .38s.

Anybody know for sure, and if so do you have a reference URL?

Thanks!
 
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Gewehr98

New member
Do you suppose these revolvers were chambered for .38 S&W?

If so, they'd remind me of Lend-Lease .38/200 (.38 S&W) Victory Models. Can't see Uncle Sam issuing guns with a non-standard round like the .38 S&W, so I'd lean more to .38 Special M&P variants. I had to qualify on a M&P .38 Special, wadcutter loads, as aircrew in 1989! :D
 
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Mike Irwin

Staff
It was NOT a .380/200.

It could either have been one of the many S&W revolvers in .38 Spl. purchased during WW II, or it could have been a newly purchased Model 10 or Model 12.

Do you remember how many shots it held?

5-shot S&Ws were issued to Air Force pilots, but I don't know about Army.
 
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Archie

New member
There was a S&W "Aircrewman".

It was an aluminum frame, aluminum cylinder (w/chamber inserts) M10.
Then there was a M 12. Aluminum frame, steel barrel and cylinder.

Both were 38 Special, but fragile. Therefore came the M41 38 Special cartridge. 130 grain FMJ at about 700 f/s. The "halt or I'll make a loud noise in your direction" load.

Any of that sound familiar?
 
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Blackhawk

New member
I'm sure the cylinder was steel, but I'm not positive about the frame. I thought it was steel, though.

Did the M41 cartridge use a shorter casing and look like a .38 casing?

Qualified as expert with one in flight school according to my DD214, but never fired one it Vietnam. We knew they were only good for avoiding capture, so none of the pilots in my unit ever bothered going to the range as we were "supposed" to. Somebody filled out the paperwork and it got signed by somebody else to satisfy the IG. The joke was nobody liked the hassle of firing a shot, then having to run downrange to find and carry the bullet the rest of the way to the target.... :D
 
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Mike Irwin

Staff
Archie,

The Aircrewman was developed for the Air Force, and served as the basis for the Model 12.

The Aircrewman (there was also a J-frame 5-shot version) was an unmitigated failure, even with the low-power .38 load that was adopted to address cylinder issues, and most were destroyed by 1960.

Some civilian 5 and 6-shot light-weights with aluminum cylinders were also made, but these, too, were failures.

Any of the above bring collector prices; authentic Aircrewmen revolvers can bring 5 figures. As such, they are often faked.

I've seen more than one Model 12 civilian model being marketed as an authentic "Aircrewman," either out of ignorance or fraud.

I've no doubt that Blackhawk was issued the M41 cartridge, which does look kind of funky.
 
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Chuck McDonald

New member
S&W .38 Revolver

I don't recall any .38 Spl. being issued to aircrews...but sure not impossible either.

My guess would be the revolver was a Victory Model .38 Spl which would have been 4" barrel. I don't recall any serious post WW II Army buys of S&W revolvers. Of course the Government bought hundreds of thousands during WW II.

The .38 Spl. ball ammo was/is pretty bad stuff... the major thing positive thing that can be said is it has low recoil.

FWIW

Chuck
 
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Frenchy

New member
When I was in "Nam" (67/68), one of the C-130 crew's that I was familiar with (out of DaNang), were using the K-frame 38's with 2 & 3 inch barrels. I don't know what the model designation was. These fellow's were supporting the marines at Khesanh at the time.
 
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Gewehr98

New member
Like I stated above...

During DESERT SHIELD/DESERT STORM, I had to qualify with, and was issued, a K-frame .38 Special, as were the rest of the crew on my WC-135B when we flew East of Germany. Scruffy old revolver, but smooth and easy to shoot with those HBWC loads the Air Force preferred. Dunno about how effective they would've been against a determined adversary, but it was a psychological boost knowing if you bailed out you at least had something.:D
 
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Blackhawk

New member
The M41 cartridge I found are listed as ".38 SPECIAL M41" like on this page, where a description is listed as:
5364 50 CARTRIDGES, BALL, CALIBER .38 SPECIAL M41 - Full sealed box of Vietnam era ammo. Natural brown color box with black printing "50 Cartridges, Ball Carliber .38 Special M41, Lot F.C. 1866, Federal Cartridge Corpotation" Headstamp FC 63. These were used by pilots and others armed with .38 Special revolvers, such as the Victory Models and others purchased on the open market. FMJ bullet are used in these combat loads to comply with the Geneva Convention, and box has warning on the side about not being suitable for non-military purposes, and are manufactures exclusively for military use. $18.00 (View Picture)
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The picture, however, only shows the box and not a cartridge. My pistol didn't have a lanyard ring like the Victory pistol pictures I've seen, and the barrel was about 4".
 
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Blackhawk

New member
but it was a psychological boost knowing if you bailed out you at least had something.
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We weren't quite as charitable toward the Army. The round was slower and just slightly more powerful than a .32 ACP FMJ by about 20 fpe.

We just looked on the pistol as a PC cyanide capsule. We could either use it on ourselves or do ourselves in by using it to make a loud noise alerting a bunch of guys with AK-47s and grenades as to exactly where we were.... :rolleyes:
 
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Mike Irwin

Staff
Blackhawk,

Nope, no special casing. Standard .38 Spl. case with an FMJ bullet.

My next-door neighbor (now moved, unfortunately) was an F-4 driver, and was issued an S&W revolver.

At that time the ONLY people using .38 S&W/.380/200 as a regular service cartridge in that area were the Royal Hong Kong Police and possibly the Malayasian and Singapore governments, but their involvement in the Vietnamese affair was pretty minimal.
 
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Blackhawk

New member
Mike,

Then it wasn't the M41 cartridge. The ammo for these things looked almost exactly like the .38 S&W. I say almost because I'm not sure they were FMJs instead of lead round nose, which fits what I remember them looking like.

I was issued 6 rounds with the gun, and I turned in all 6 rounds when I left Vietnam. Meanwhile, those same six rounds went through a daily drill of going from the revolver into my flight suit pocket and back into the revolver. The "one way" trips were repeated way over 1,200 times, so I'm positive that I remember the size of the cartridges quite well, and there's no way they were .38 Specials.

The unloading drill was dual purposed. We didn't wear sidearms when not flying, and Vietnamese civilians were employed for housekeeping, etc. "Hooch maid or papa san by day, VC by night" so nobody was anxioius to have an armed VC wandering around.

It fascinates me that there are ubiquitous references to the ".38 caliber revolver" issued to Vietnam era U.S. pilots, but nobody seems to know exactly what guns those were. :confused:

If I hadn't had one, I don't know if I'd believe it myself! :D
 
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C.R.Sam

New member
A lot of different firearms showed up over there in the 20+ years we were involved.
The only aircrew issue revolvers I noticed were .38 Special M&Ps.
My samplings were from 57, 58, 60-63 and 66/67.
Lots of personal carry guns tho of all types.

Sam
 
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Radicalcleric

New member
The US military never issued any revolver other than the .38 Special caliber since WW I (some 1917s in .45 may have been issued in early part of WW II but not in large numbers). I am positive the revolver you had was a S&W M10 Military and Police Model in .38 Special. I am also sure that the ammo was the 130 grain full metal jacket .38 Special. This round looks smaller due to its stubby bullet. Maybe that's why you are thinking it was a different caliber. Appearances can be tricky, as can one's memory after 25+ years.
 
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Kentucky Rifle

New member
This is reaching WAY back guys, but I'm nearly sure mine was a .38 Special, 4 inch barrel, alloy frame, and a lanyard loop on the butt. Does this ring any bells? I suppose I could be wrong about EVERYTHING!:confused:

KR
 
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Blackhawk

New member
The US military never issued any revolver other than the .38 Special caliber since WW I (some 1917s in .45 may have been issued in early part of WW II but not in large numbers). I am positive the revolver you had was a S&W M10 Military and Police Model in .38 Special. I am also sure that the ammo was the 130 grain full metal jacket .38 Special.
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Hey, Saxon, you're the guy in those DiGiorno pizza commercials, aren't you? You know, the guy who keeps losing bets about whether the pizza is delivery or frozen...? :D

Mistaking a .38 Special round for a .38 round is like mistaking a watermelon for a tatuma squash. No way! Besides if they were .38 Specials, they would've been worked out rigorously at the range. As far as I know during my time there ('68-'70) NONE of those .38s ever sent a round downrange. Every newby always asked and the answer never changed from "38 Special ammo will not work."
 
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