Help finding brass rod for making casings...
- Thread starter std7mag
- Start date
JeepHammer
Moderator
Videos above show the old tried & true ways to make ammo,
Not many of us have 100,000 to 300,000 pound cast iron frame equipment anymore, or can dedicate an entire building to ONE machine.
Just for the record, your 'Accuracy' ammo isn't made that way, it's CNC collet rotary machines that have the capability to gauge/process each case individually.
You will see a couple of production electrical annealers, much more precise than flame annealing...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYk3_IcB4JI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ira3dmlclQ4
Home annealing unit, ready to run when you get it, no overheated cases.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGfGV8xrfak
This guy in particular goes into brass formula by manufacture, even if you gas anneal, this should give you something to think about.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zu9rva9uG6Y
If you SEE a color change, not a finish change, but the metal 'Glowing', you went WAY too far!
if you see a 'Puff' of smoke from the case, either the case wasn't cleaned correctly, and you just baked crud into the brass,
OR,
More likely with a torch, you just cooked trace minerals out of the case, soon to be followed by separating metals in the brass mix.
Not many of us have 100,000 to 300,000 pound cast iron frame equipment anymore, or can dedicate an entire building to ONE machine.
Just for the record, your 'Accuracy' ammo isn't made that way, it's CNC collet rotary machines that have the capability to gauge/process each case individually.
You will see a couple of production electrical annealers, much more precise than flame annealing...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYk3_IcB4JI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ira3dmlclQ4
Home annealing unit, ready to run when you get it, no overheated cases.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGfGV8xrfak
This guy in particular goes into brass formula by manufacture, even if you gas anneal, this should give you something to think about.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zu9rva9uG6Y
If you SEE a color change, not a finish change, but the metal 'Glowing', you went WAY too far!
if you see a 'Puff' of smoke from the case, either the case wasn't cleaned correctly, and you just baked crud into the brass,
OR,
More likely with a torch, you just cooked trace minerals out of the case, soon to be followed by separating metals in the brass mix.
std7mag, It would be nice to know what parent case you are talking about and it would be handy to know what wildcat you are talking about. For me? I like to apply the 'Three Bears' philosophy, I do not want a case head that is too hard, I do not want a case head that is too soft, I want the case head that is 'just right'. When I fire a case I want the case head to expand, if it does not expand with normal loads the case head is too hard.
And then there is the receiver design, I always ask about the Japanese rifle design when someone tells me everything they know about the Japanese rifle; they tell me it is the strongest rifle in the world. I always say: "Forget the rifle, give me the cases, because, if the rifle did not blow up the case did not blow up and that makes the case the strongest case in the world". That should bring us beck to failure when the trigger is/was pulled but it doesn't.
F. Guffey
Last edited:
JeepHammer
Moderator
Mr. Guffey,
I thought the thread was about producing cases from scratch, annealing and starting with the correct base material stock is part of that... I could be wrong, kind of occupied with the election and buying casings on government auction... RED TAPE!
So I could have missed something...
I haven't thumbed through the latest stock suppliers catalogs lately, but 'Cartridge Brass' used to be pretty plainly listed in round rod, bar stock & coiled sheets.
As for 'Hardening' the base stock/case head when cutting a case from scratch, good luck with that.
You can't heat harden brass, and since you aren't pressing/'drawing' the brass, it's not going to work harden.
I guess you could fire the case, over pressured, two or three times to compression/work harden it, but that seems dangerous & counter productive.
the rifle chamber has zero chance of exerting the force a punch press does without becoming shrapnel.
I thought the thread was about producing cases from scratch, annealing and starting with the correct base material stock is part of that... I could be wrong, kind of occupied with the election and buying casings on government auction... RED TAPE!
So I could have missed something...
I haven't thumbed through the latest stock suppliers catalogs lately, but 'Cartridge Brass' used to be pretty plainly listed in round rod, bar stock & coiled sheets.
As for 'Hardening' the base stock/case head when cutting a case from scratch, good luck with that.
You can't heat harden brass, and since you aren't pressing/'drawing' the brass, it's not going to work harden.
I guess you could fire the case, over pressured, two or three times to compression/work harden it, but that seems dangerous & counter productive.
the rifle chamber has zero chance of exerting the force a punch press does without becoming shrapnel.
And then there was that time I got a real good deal on cases from an iron and metal yard. No one told them the cases could be suspect. Legend has it the manufacturer took liberties when annealing, it is said they took short cuts.
By the time I found a warning it was too late, I had already fired 60 cases twice. In my opinion the cases were magnificent cases and there was nothing suspect about the cases; problem; I did not fire all of the cases. Because I use cases and I collect cases it meant nothing to me to move the cases from the sorted brass to the collectable brass. 30 Years passed before I found more cases, all had been fired and the smith/reloader that fired the cases always loaded on the heavy side, again, I found nothing suspect 'his' cases. And then I wondered, I found the cases in an iron and metal yard in New Jersey, the next batch I found In Denton, Texas. The location lead me to believe the cases got out of the plant before they the manufacturer suspected mistakes were made; and I do not believe all of the cases were mistakes.
F. Guffey
http://www.allaboutphilosophy.org/blind-men-and-the-elephant.htm
And then there are reloaders and annealing, seems no matter what things stay the same.
I have suggested reloaders think; that does not work. In the big inning I decided there were rules/factors that applied to annealing so I sat down and made a tool for annealing cases based on annealing rules and factors.
F. Guffey
JeepHammer
Moderator
Only three ways to make a case I know of,
1. Punch the case out in a pin press with sufficient pressure to make the brass 'Plastic' and 'Flow' into the voids in the die & around the pin.
2. Machine the case from an appropriate piece of base material.
3. Cast the case in a mold. This is arcane method and is no longer used.
Just for the record,
Its often said that cases are 'Drawn' out.
This is an entirely different process than punching or machining.
Drawing usually refers to drawing (pulling) a mailable material through a sizing die to make the drawn material a consistent diameter.
Copper or brass wire is Drawn through a circular die to make it a smaller, constant size...
Cases are not 'Drawn'.
1. Punch the case out in a pin press with sufficient pressure to make the brass 'Plastic' and 'Flow' into the voids in the die & around the pin.
2. Machine the case from an appropriate piece of base material.
3. Cast the case in a mold. This is arcane method and is no longer used.
Just for the record,
Its often said that cases are 'Drawn' out.
This is an entirely different process than punching or machining.
Drawing usually refers to drawing (pulling) a mailable material through a sizing die to make the drawn material a consistent diameter.
Copper or brass wire is Drawn through a circular die to make it a smaller, constant size...
Cases are not 'Drawn'.
Thank you very much for the input, and information !!
I plan on making a wildcat off of the 425 Westley Richards case. The issue that has occurred previously by others is that with such a rebated rim the brass is too soft to handle pressures of upwards of 56,000 psi, and get case elongation at the base.
I do have the book of Cartridge Conversions which is where I got this crazy idea to begin with.
In it the 500 Jeffery is listed as machine, as they are almost impossible to find. The pressure on that casing is 47,000 PSI. Hence I was hoping with a harder brass compound to be able to get upwards of almost 56,000 psi.
I had also seen a test done by a lab on different rifle casings, and the different brass formulations. Lapua's old brown box used a harder brass than others, which is why shooters have loved it as far as not needing to trim as often, and the casing itself seeming to last longer.
I plan on making a wildcat off of the 425 Westley Richards case. The issue that has occurred previously by others is that with such a rebated rim the brass is too soft to handle pressures of upwards of 56,000 psi, and get case elongation at the base.
I do have the book of Cartridge Conversions which is where I got this crazy idea to begin with.
In it the 500 Jeffery is listed as machine, as they are almost impossible to find. The pressure on that casing is 47,000 PSI. Hence I was hoping with a harder brass compound to be able to get upwards of almost 56,000 psi.
I had also seen a test done by a lab on different rifle casings, and the different brass formulations. Lapua's old brown box used a harder brass than others, which is why shooters have loved it as far as not needing to trim as often, and the casing itself seeming to last longer.
JeepHammer
Moderator
Common rolled brass rod will come with stress/forming lines you can't remove with annealing,
While drawn cartridge brass rod won't have that issue, annealing will allow you to neck down to your heart's content.
Keep in mind that cartridge brass is 'High' brass (high zinc content),
Rolled brass rod will be 'Low' brass, suitable for sheer pins and the like, but not cartridges.
Die drawing usually leaves the brass around 95-100 Rockwell B scale,
Which is about as hard as military case brass at the head stamp.
(Easier to machine hard brass)
So annealing the tops before you try to taper/form a shoulder is going to be a requirement.
Normally brass starts to split the necks at high pressure around 95-105,
Factory new brass shows up at around 65-75 Rockwell B, and when I'm conditioning brass or producing brass I look to get that brass neck/shoulder down around 70-75 Rockwell B before final sizing.
With 'High' cartridge brass, that's 700*F. To 730*F. Saturated all the way through.
Stay under 750*F. Or you will over cook the brass. Zinc starts to come out of alloy at around 775*-800*F. And you will have burned off all the trace minerals that give cartridge brass it's unique properties...
While you are playing with annealing, everyone starts with gas,
Watch for flame color change, that is combustable/vaporizable components of the brass being burned off, the brass alloy is forever changed.
Ruining a couple is a good way NOT to ruin the rest, so you know what you are looking for,
Like seeing that 'Puff' of smoke coming off the brass, that is Non-combustible components of the brass alloy escaping the brass, again altering the alloy forever.
While drawn cartridge brass rod won't have that issue, annealing will allow you to neck down to your heart's content.
Keep in mind that cartridge brass is 'High' brass (high zinc content),
Rolled brass rod will be 'Low' brass, suitable for sheer pins and the like, but not cartridges.
Die drawing usually leaves the brass around 95-100 Rockwell B scale,
Which is about as hard as military case brass at the head stamp.
(Easier to machine hard brass)
So annealing the tops before you try to taper/form a shoulder is going to be a requirement.
Normally brass starts to split the necks at high pressure around 95-105,
Factory new brass shows up at around 65-75 Rockwell B, and when I'm conditioning brass or producing brass I look to get that brass neck/shoulder down around 70-75 Rockwell B before final sizing.
With 'High' cartridge brass, that's 700*F. To 730*F. Saturated all the way through.
Stay under 750*F. Or you will over cook the brass. Zinc starts to come out of alloy at around 775*-800*F. And you will have burned off all the trace minerals that give cartridge brass it's unique properties...
While you are playing with annealing, everyone starts with gas,
Watch for flame color change, that is combustable/vaporizable components of the brass being burned off, the brass alloy is forever changed.
Ruining a couple is a good way NOT to ruin the rest, so you know what you are looking for,
Like seeing that 'Puff' of smoke coming off the brass, that is Non-combustible components of the brass alloy escaping the brass, again altering the alloy forever.
JeepHammer,
From what I have been seeing, the cartridge brass (yellow brass) is C26000, and is about 70% copper to 30% zinc.
The C27000, C28000 are about 65%copper and 34%zinc with some other additives possibly thrown in the mix.
Hence why I'm looking for the C27000, or C28000.
Would you have access to these that would be suitable for my purposes?
Thanks
Std7mag
From what I have been seeing, the cartridge brass (yellow brass) is C26000, and is about 70% copper to 30% zinc.
The C27000, C28000 are about 65%copper and 34%zinc with some other additives possibly thrown in the mix.
Hence why I'm looking for the C27000, or C28000.
Would you have access to these that would be suitable for my purposes?
Thanks
Std7mag