Help finding brass rod for making casings...

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std7mag

New member
So I've done all the drawings for some wildcat cartridges that I'd like to experiment with. Problem is that the parent casings are $108 for 20...:eek:

So I've done my research, and am getting ready to get my metal lathe, and tooling. Yep, have decided to machine my own casings.

I'm looking for brass rod. C27000 (C270), or C28000 (C280 or Muntz Metal).

Have decided on these 2 because they have a higher zinc content than the C260 Cartridge Brass.

I'm looking for 0.625" or larger diameter, and lengths up to 3ft.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!!!

Thanks

Std7mag
 
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Unclenick

Staff
You'd need not only brass but hard (work-hardened) brass. If you turn cases from soft brass, they lack the work hardening from extruding intentionally left below the neck and especially in the head of a case to make it strong enough to hold pressure.
 
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StripesDude

New member
What's your time worth? Sounds like you're going to expend a ton of effort. 20 for $108 breaks down to about $5.40 each.

At that cost, my expectation would be to spend no more than three minutes on each one. Can you machine one that quickly - rim, primer pocket, flash hole, etc?
 
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JeepHammer

Moderator
I don't want to start a flame war here,

Annealing takes place at least 3 times during manufacture of modern brass,
Brass sheets are punched into 'Cups', then annealed for the die/pin press that forms the stright wall case, rim is cut and primer pocket is cut if it wasn't formed with the case, the case is completely annealed again,
The case neck will be annealed at least one more time as the bottle neck (shoulder bends) are formed, and usually annealed again to precisely form the tension neck that actually holds the bullet.

Since all major manufacturers have gone to electrical annealing, its not nearly as difficult to anneal precisely as it was with gas flame or hot steel induction heating.

Annealing the entire brass hurts nothing most times, chamber pressures don't come anywhere near requiring the brass to be hardened to help support chamber pressures in factory loaded ammunition.

Machining 'Hard' brass is MUCH easier than trying to scrape away 'Dead Soft' brass, which likes to ball up in cutting tools,
Either way brass is a pain in the butt, and I have to agree that for $5 avoiding a couple hours EACH on the lathe would be worth spending the money.

Don't know if you have machined brass before, but just the parabolic drills are going to cost you more than the cost of the premade cases...
And keep in mind that brass rod stock is rolled, you WILL have rolling stress lines in the brass that will effect your cases...

Cast or press formed brass, rather than rod stock would probably be a better choice for rifle cases...
When I form brass here, it's sheet stock, thrown into 50 ton press and die/pin punch formed.
An even press pressure increase so the brass stays 'Plastic' until the pin bottoms out in the die produces a nearly stress free case with no 'Start/Stop' stress lines in the sides of the case.

Annealing can & will release stress in pressed brass, but annealing can't remove the material seperation/stress lines in rolled brass stock.
I tried it, spent close to a year on it, couldn't make it work, and now I've found out no one else has made it work either...
 
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jmorris

New member
Annealing the entire brass hurts nothing...
Click to expand...

Worth noting that the military does not allow the signs of annealing to be removed so it is obvious that it was done as a last step and you never see the entire case annealed.

If it were an acceptable practice to anneal the entire case we wouldn't bother with expensive and elaborate methods to do so when we could just put them all into an oven and anneal every case at the same time.

Are they annealed many times? Yes, pretty much between every drawing operation but I know of no manufacturers that anneal the entire case as a final step.

That said the op won't be the first guy to turn brass cases.

These folks sell the ones they turn.
http://www.rockymountaincartridge.com/products.htm

This is a list of the odd balls they already have programming for.

http://www.rockymountaincartridge.com/index_htm_files/RMC Product List.pdf

I have also seen reduced capacity (volume) centerfire cases for loading subs. The small volume also equates to much thicker walls.
 
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std7mag

New member
Time isn't so much the issue, as the specific hardness of the brass. The original parent case is too soft in compound for my use.
 
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Reloadron

New member
0.625" (5/8") brass rod stock can be had, as mentioned from McMaster Carr Supply. I used them quite a bit for alloys. Don't know if they have what you are looking fore but they are a start. As to the annealing and heat treatment required to make brass cartridge cases I am of absolutely no help. :) Best of luck in the project.

Ron
 
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JeepHammer

Moderator
You have to preface some posts with a disclaimer sometimes when presenting information that isn't common knowledge, or is a new idea.
Some people can't tolerate new ideas, information or facts.

Turning a case is different than mass production,
And if you cut the rod off, buff the end, see 'Cold Roll' lines in the brass rod,
The case made from that rod IS going to split along the lines, and its going to split in short order.
Some rolled rod splits while machining it...
Just a quirk of the manufacturing process for the rod.
Just trying to save the guy the troubles some of us have already encountered.

Die formed (True Drawing) rod/wire won't have the roll lines in it and works much better,
Along with poured or forged blanks, which usually start out square.
There is a reason brass bushing start with die formed (Drawn) brass or bronze instead of rolled brass stock, same reason, rolled splits under pressure.

Mass production starts with brass sheets,
Cups punched out, annealed, usually with glass or steel shot heated to the required Temprature for through annealing.
I'm sure there are electrical induction heaters and flame heaters used somewhere, I just haven't seen any in the last 15 years or so, but I don't visit the smaller manufacturers or forign countries.

The reasoning is, in the primary drawing stage, the 'Cup' or 'Slug' has to have consistant hardening all the way through or stress lines/fractures show up in the drawn product.
Its easier to anneal the entire cut than to harden the entire cup, and soft brass flows better during the drawing process.

The case blank is cut for rim/belt, and if nessary, the primer pocket is cut onto the blank case.
The case is annealed fully for a second pass through the drawing/rolling presses,
Again, because it's easier to work soft brass, and hard spots in the brass will cause defects.

Bottle neck cases will all be top annealed at least one more time, usually two or three times as shoulder bends/neck is formed,
Some cases get just top end, premium cases will get full length annealed & polished, while military brass doesn't bother with final high luster polish, and they don't polish after the last top end annealing.

Hard brass cup will make a 50 ton press grunt!
 
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T. O'Heir

New member
Highly unlikely you'll find a specific alloy without going to a manufacturer. However, do a net search. As in searching 'C28000 brass rod' on Yahoo turns up 2,010 results.
"...and tooling..." That'll be the expensive part.
What you really need is a copy of Cartridge Conversions by George Nonte($96.98 at Amazon). Or The Handloader's Manual of Cartridge Conversions by John J. Donnelly. $20.92 on Amazon.
 
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Unclenick

Staff
Jeephammer,

I think your first post left the impression you were talking about annealing whole finished brass causing no harm. When I was young and ignorant, I did that in an oven once to some 45 Auto brass that I was loading only to light target pressures. The headstamp edges started folding in on themselves, gradually making the stamp disappear, and the primer pockets loosened over a number reloading cycles where unannealed brass did not do any such thing at those low pressures (probably in the 10,000 psi range). If one of those cases had been loaded to a pressure that causes pregnant cases, I wouldn't have given it good odds of holding the pressure in the unsupported Goldcup chamber.

A lot of shooters have complained about commercial brass that isn't hard enough. Federal usually gets the brunt of that, with complaints that their magnum rifle factory loads sometimes widen the case heads enough to drop their primers loose on that first firing. You can see from the brass color that it hasn't received a final annealing below the neck. (Hold it in the light just right and the annealed area has a slightly lighter hue, to my eyes.)

Back when Hatcher was testing the strength of the Garand, he wrote that he found it so great that he had no arsenal cases that didn't just blow out before the receiver was over pressure. He reported getting some cases made extra hard in the head by having the headstamp struck extra deeply into them. Apparently that was enough additional case hardening to provide a significant increase in strength, because he then was finally able to blow a test Garand up.
 
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jmorris

New member
I think your first post left the impression you were talking about annealing whole finished brass causing no harm.
Click to expand...

That is where I edited my last post, so not to seem like a "flame war" fellow, rather the videos, if watched, might give some insight.

The "pizza oven" that starline uses to anneal the entire "raw product" is much less involved than the "specific area" annealing that Remington uses in the final forming/finished product steps.

They both anneal, one is everything, the other only a portion and both serve a purpose, just two different ones.

Kind of like saying every gun needs a hole in it. Yes, every gun needs a hole but it's good to know where and why they should be there.
 
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Snyper

New member
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/annealing.html

Dr Ken Howell:

Overannealing is a double danger.

Only the neck, shoulder, and upper body can be safely annealed at all.

The rest of the case must retain its original hardness.

The head in particular has to be hard which is why the manufacture of good brass requires enough draws to work-harden the head.

The head (especially) can't be safely softened, so the annealing absolutely must be confined to the other end a process that's ticklish enough with a case as long as the .30-06 and immeasurably trickier with most handgun cases and very short rifle cases.
Click to expand...

Quote Jeephammer:
Annealing the entire brass hurts nothing...
Click to expand...

I know which one I believe
 
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Gunplummer

New member
I certainly would not want a soft rim area because of extraction. If you are turning and boreing everything anyway, maybe steel? The steel cases I have used were very hard down near the rim, but I suspect that was mostly from production.
 
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Jimro

New member
I don't know what parent case you are looking for, but I'd just pay the money to buy factory brass. Heck even 505 Gibbs brass can be had for about 3 bucks a case when you buy enough of them.

I also think that wildcatting is mostly just a way to replicate something already out there, kinda like hot rodding is a way to make a car into a slightly different car....

Jimro
 
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JeepHammer

Moderator
I do testing on mostly common rifle cases, not belted 'Super Duper' or what ever.

Factory brass usually runs Rockwell B at 65 or so all the way through, which is dead soft for 'High Brass',
Low brass can run as low as 55 Rockwell B

Mil-brass often runs harder at the body about 75-80 Rockwell B, softer at the neck around 60-65 Rockwell B, since in final annealing only the neck is annealed.

Fired Mil-brass can run Rockwell 95, and that is HARD for cartridge brass!
I see a lot of split brass doing Rockwell B 90-95.
I don't know EXACTLY what each brass formulation splits at, but like I said, splits are full hard every time I test them.

Probably depends a bunch on how sloppy the chamber is, letting the case over expand on how quick the brass work hardens, so you would have to know EVERY chamber and EVERY brass formula and EVERY resizing die to know EXACTLY when the brass is getting 'Too Hard'... I'm not prone to 'One Size Fits All' answers, so I don't have one for EXACTLY when you need to anneal.

Because of the nature flame annealing, flame heat spreading out when it hits the case, I can see why 'Zone' annealing would be easier with electrical induction... But there are guys that will stick with the plumbers torch and MAPP gas no matter what the science says, So further discussion would be futile on my part.
 
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