Personally a P99 appeals to me more. And I realize there is an abundance of striker fired pistols out there already, but folks complain so much about HK not offering new products and now that they have, folks are complaining that they aren't innovative enough? Make up your mind people.
Heckler & Koch VP9 Review
- Thread starter Mrgunsngear
- Start date
well in all fairness its not really a "new" product any more than a sigma/sd9 ,ruger lcp, or multitude of 1911 rip offs on the market. Its more of a cop out copycat product that shows HK lack any creativity they might have once had.
I understand die hard HK lovers are excited but those people would also be excited by a hipoint striker fired pistol with a HK logo on it. Personally i am not impressed as I have a bit of experience with HKs past offerings.
In short this is a bit of a disappointment. the only new thing it brings to the market is another striker fired, falling block polymer gun with the exception of a higher price tag. HKs have now become innovators in overpricing Designs in an already saturated market of those same designs....LOL.
I understand die hard HK lovers are excited but those people would also be excited by a hipoint striker fired pistol with a HK logo on it. Personally i am not impressed as I have a bit of experience with HKs past offerings.
In short this is a bit of a disappointment. the only new thing it brings to the market is another striker fired, falling block polymer gun with the exception of a higher price tag. HKs have now become innovators in overpricing Designs in an already saturated market of those same designs....LOL.
sigarms228
New member
HK RD team is very busy with a whole slew of military rifles. Stuff most of us civilians probably would never even be able to touch, own, or shoot. The kind of real assault weapons that would cause Diane Fienstein to have an instant heart attack and drop dead if she saw one. That is their core business.
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i understand what your saying magnut,i really do...and i sympathize...(i actually preferred when HK was making unique pistols instead of their "Americanized" products)...
...but keep this in mind...Keltec and Taurus both do their last little bit of T&E with the public itself,it's part of the reason for their low prices and just the way they do business. HK does not do that and unless something has recently changed at HK,i'm willing to bet good money this new VP9 hits the ground running with very thorough T&E with little-to-no problems/issues from the get-go,even if they saved money(and passed it on to the consumer) on R&D because there's nothing that innovative about it.
even just not actually firing,testing and sending out a test target with the pistol,which is not the type of T&E i reference above,can save the company money. i cringe a little every time i see one of those types of targets that indicate where the pistol WOULD shoot instead of actual bullet holes on the paper.
...but keep this in mind...Keltec and Taurus both do their last little bit of T&E with the public itself,it's part of the reason for their low prices and just the way they do business. HK does not do that and unless something has recently changed at HK,i'm willing to bet good money this new VP9 hits the ground running with very thorough T&E with little-to-no problems/issues from the get-go,even if they saved money(and passed it on to the consumer) on R&D because there's nothing that innovative about it.
even just not actually firing,testing and sending out a test target with the pistol,which is not the type of T&E i reference above,can save the company money. i cringe a little every time i see one of those types of targets that indicate where the pistol WOULD shoot instead of actual bullet holes on the paper.
Dirty_Harry
New member
I don't do any official competition. I was mainly speculating. I do competition types events with my local gun club. Eventually I plan on getting into it.
It's actually a pretty short list unless you meant to say "Browning-esque Tilt Barrel Striker Fired Polymer" pistols --the only autoloading falling block I know of is the Madsen LMG, and Paul Bunyan would have trouble carrying it in a holster
If 4000$ piston ARs (though reportedly excellent) and +6000$ PDWs are H&K's "core" business, it's no wonder they've been posting worrisome performance compared to...everyone for some time. To be honest, we could have zero restrictions on their products in this country, and you'd still have very few people willing to partake of their best current or past offerings. R&D is necessary, but H&K takes it to the excess of a luxury. No doubt about that. I would argue that Kel-Tec is by far the most innovative company out there worth mentioning, but are out of their depth as far as being a national-scale company where customers will increasingly demand perfection and unending quantities, regardless the impact these will have on the business. I personally think H&K's fatal mistake was chasing contracts for so long, that they trapped themselves into a business climate as suffocating as government itself, but without its backing. Part of the blame for this motivation undoubtedly lays on our government's chronic mistreatment of their business in our country, which drove them to further devil-deals with governments. Germany really needs to straight-up nationalize them, like Belgium did with FNH (and I honestly don't know why they don't since they practically have "armorer to the king" status already)
Hopefully, they have seen their tactical error and will begin producing what the market actually wants, vs. what their government customers thoughtlessly demand, or what their R&D department thinks they are capable of; they simply can't afford to indulge these interests much longer.
I always chuckle when I think that the same company making the comically-extravagant MP7 got big making something as brutally cheap and inelegant as the G3 series of guns, the laurels of which it rode for a solid 30 years before frittering away at least a decade on the flagrantly impractical G11, then finally re-inventing the AR18 in a series of costly science projects. It's like the Lamborghini company getting a start in tractors, or active-radar maker Ball Aerospace getting a start in mason jars
. The difference in those is they deviated from their roots to meet a market demand; H&K was diverted to follow bureaucrat fever-dreams TCB
*DiFi votes to send people into combat, issue military contracts, undoubtedly was in deep with Mr. Yee, and has probably straight up had people killed to get where she is --she isn't a frail flower around guns, ya'll, just the "wrong folk" getting their hands on them around her
yes tilt barrel is the better term.
I agree about keltec. If they could keep up demand and provide a little better execution they would probably dominate the market on the civilian side eventually.
One thing HK could have done if they really wanted to shake things up and go cheap would be to bring back the VP70. Lighten up and shorten the trigger, keep the blowback design, and make a few other small changes. Market it right and Get the cost down in the 300-350 range and they pull sales away from everybody Hipoint on up to Walther. May have to manufacture them stateside though which i am not sure is easy with HK.
I still think a squeze cocker, hi capacity P9 would be the way to go.
hey barnbwt, did you get your remington running yet? I almost bought an original a few days ago and your threads on here and high road came to mind.
I agree about keltec. If they could keep up demand and provide a little better execution they would probably dominate the market on the civilian side eventually.
One thing HK could have done if they really wanted to shake things up and go cheap would be to bring back the VP70. Lighten up and shorten the trigger, keep the blowback design, and make a few other small changes. Market it right and Get the cost down in the 300-350 range and they pull sales away from everybody Hipoint on up to Walther. May have to manufacture them stateside though which i am not sure is easy with HK.
I still think a squeze cocker, hi capacity P9 would be the way to go.
hey barnbwt, did you get your remington running yet? I almost bought an original a few days ago and your threads on here and high road came to mind.
Wreck-n-Crew
New member
Have to go with Theo on this one. Instinct is to rap tap bang...after all how often does a primer fail in a SD/FOF/ scenario? 1 in a billion? Only way to be certain is to clear and charge the weapon with a live round IMO and in the opinion of experts as well. I see the front slide serrations more usable than a second strike. YMMV
I'm sure in the future HK will contact you regarding their market plans.
The M&P had a street price of $550 when it first came out. It also didn't have any of the costs of importation as this does. I expect the street price to get down around $650 or lower after some time. By the time you add an Apex kit to those early M&Ps the price was almost the same (newer M&Ps seem to have better triggers). Comparing a pistol that has been out in the market for years to a brand new one in terms of price just doesn't work. For H&K the plus here is to have an option hundreds of dollars less than their previous pistols.
As for Taurus, had their price not been so low they might have been able to spend some time on QC and not have to recall close to 100,000 pistols supplied to Brazil.
50 posts in 9 years and talking about why you don't like this warrants a few of them? Why? I'd expect someone that posted that infrequently to tell us of something incredible.
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Kind of rude mate. i post on a lot of different forums and when i find interesting topics I post here as well. i dont see how high post counts really matter on one particular forum a whole lot but if its important to you thats fine.
as far as second strike capability goes i am not going to make excuses for HK. There are striker fired designs out there that have second strike capability and they work fine. IMO HK didnt do it because they wanted to put out a pistol that was good enough but not exceptional. They essentially put out a poor mans p30 that is not really that inexpensive compared to whats currently on the market and are relying on brand name alone to sell this pistol.
one of the better attributes of striker fired pistols is the ability to lower the bore. From what i see they didnt really do that either. if you take away the hk logo and asthetics (which dont matter a whole lot) this pistol at its core is just like every other striker on the market in the $350-500 range. So in the end one has to ask themselves what the point?
it kind of reminds me of the beretta nano attempt. beretta who ussually has interesting guns throws out a subcompact striker with a high bore and ends up not being all that compact to begin with. thus people are not that impressed other than hardcore beretta lovers. I should say i am big beretta fan as well as HK but beretta kind of copped out as well with that offering.
lets look at HK pistols
HK4 first offering based on mauser hsc with some neat changes and well executed
vp70z machine pistol that was civianized to semi auto and is one of the most versatile and tough guns on the market while bringing polymer frames into the fold. maybe the best camping, outdoor, idiot proof 9mm guns ever produced.
P9s legendary gun that has many uniue design implementations.
p7m8 gas system squeeze cocker that the industry really hasnt figured out a way to copy
USP series....probably the top polymer handgun ever produced although the walther is right there as well. they esentially took a glock and made it better. meanwhile almost everyone else just did the glock thing.
In the end i expect more from an elite manufacturer like HK. Going more affordable is fine but this offering is a let down IMO. Doesnt mean it wont sell. it may do pretty well but if i want a real HK quality gun i would rather pony up and get a new or used gun that represents the excellence that HK has showed in the past instead of a watered down version of whats already common to the market.
This is not to say its a bad pistol. I am sure it will be fine. As i stated earlier I just dont see what all the hype is about. its not that impressive. just another striker design in a market already saturated with striker designs. many of which take advantage of the attributes of striker fired guns.
i guess i am a hard sell though. Cost and brand name do not come first for me. The walther p99 and beretta px storm impressed me. The USP impressed me. even lower cost guns like keltec p11s/p32 etc and a multitude of taurus impress me. heck...the republic arms/cobra patriot 45acp is a heck of a design and quality for what it is. i paid under $200 for a new one and its an excellent ccw pistol. The stuff coming out of turkey impresses me although its ripping of exhisting designs. Their execution is very good.
its funny with taurus and keltec. For all the bashing i have read I have never owned, shot, or seen a bad one. Mine have all been great and i have shot a lot of them. its baffling to me how people seem to run across so many bad ones.
as far as second strike capability goes i am not going to make excuses for HK. There are striker fired designs out there that have second strike capability and they work fine. IMO HK didnt do it because they wanted to put out a pistol that was good enough but not exceptional. They essentially put out a poor mans p30 that is not really that inexpensive compared to whats currently on the market and are relying on brand name alone to sell this pistol.
one of the better attributes of striker fired pistols is the ability to lower the bore. From what i see they didnt really do that either. if you take away the hk logo and asthetics (which dont matter a whole lot) this pistol at its core is just like every other striker on the market in the $350-500 range. So in the end one has to ask themselves what the point?
it kind of reminds me of the beretta nano attempt. beretta who ussually has interesting guns throws out a subcompact striker with a high bore and ends up not being all that compact to begin with. thus people are not that impressed other than hardcore beretta lovers. I should say i am big beretta fan as well as HK but beretta kind of copped out as well with that offering.
lets look at HK pistols
HK4 first offering based on mauser hsc with some neat changes and well executed
vp70z machine pistol that was civianized to semi auto and is one of the most versatile and tough guns on the market while bringing polymer frames into the fold. maybe the best camping, outdoor, idiot proof 9mm guns ever produced.
P9s legendary gun that has many uniue design implementations.
p7m8 gas system squeeze cocker that the industry really hasnt figured out a way to copy
USP series....probably the top polymer handgun ever produced although the walther is right there as well. they esentially took a glock and made it better. meanwhile almost everyone else just did the glock thing.
In the end i expect more from an elite manufacturer like HK. Going more affordable is fine but this offering is a let down IMO. Doesnt mean it wont sell. it may do pretty well but if i want a real HK quality gun i would rather pony up and get a new or used gun that represents the excellence that HK has showed in the past instead of a watered down version of whats already common to the market.
This is not to say its a bad pistol. I am sure it will be fine. As i stated earlier I just dont see what all the hype is about. its not that impressive. just another striker design in a market already saturated with striker designs. many of which take advantage of the attributes of striker fired guns.
i guess i am a hard sell though. Cost and brand name do not come first for me. The walther p99 and beretta px storm impressed me. The USP impressed me. even lower cost guns like keltec p11s/p32 etc and a multitude of taurus impress me. heck...the republic arms/cobra patriot 45acp is a heck of a design and quality for what it is. i paid under $200 for a new one and its an excellent ccw pistol. The stuff coming out of turkey impresses me although its ripping of exhisting designs. Their execution is very good.
its funny with taurus and keltec. For all the bashing i have read I have never owned, shot, or seen a bad one. Mine have all been great and i have shot a lot of them. its baffling to me how people seem to run across so many bad ones.
Theohazard
New member
There are downsides to a second-strike capability: The trigger will never be as good as a traditional partially-cocked striker design. And add to that the fact that second-strike capability is virtually useless: You should be performing an immediate-action drill the moment the gun goes "click", not pulling the trigger again.magnut said:
The only time that a second-strike capability would be useful is if you had a light primer strike while your off-hand was wounded or otherwise incapacitated. What are the chances of that happening with quality ammo? No, I'd rather have a better trigger and no second-strike capability.
thats valid. i am the opposite. i prefer a pistol that can be used with a single hand if need be. growing up learning with horrendous airgun trigger pulls resulted in almost all triggers being adaptable for me. You should shoot a vp70, cobra patriot, or cat9 someday. they have some pretty fun triggers on them. Not as horrendous as people make them out to be though. i remember having some trouble with a carpati pistol a while back. that double action was like turbulance on a two seater...LOL.
$650 vs. $850? I know a lot of folks that wouldn't hand over that cash for a polymer pistol (you yourself asked why people would spend the extra over pistols that were even cheaper). It's also not like they're discontinuing the P30 if you still want it. You seem pretty set on second strike capability, when honestly almost everyone these days teaches tap, rack, bang. I carry and own mostly hammer fired guns, but frankly second strike isn't the principal reason why.
It's a smidgen lower than a PPQ, and people seem to handle that just fine and not bemoan the high bore axis too much.
We've been over this a number of times mate. To have a striker fired polymer option. It's honestly that simple. That's what the market wants right now. HK spent years tying to convince people that LEM was what they wanted, it didn't work.
What do you mean by "real" HK quality? Have you fired one, or even seen one in the flesh? How do you know it isn't just as high quality as any other HK design? Just because it doesn't have a hammer? Just because it is lower in price? But you just got done saying how a number of cheaper options are also high quality, so price can't be the only factor in quality.
Theohazard
New member
And a pistol without second-strike capability can be used with a single hand just fine.magnut said:
yes second strike is valid to me in a carry weapon. Things happen and i would opt for second strike over not. i have had hangfires before and i dont practice the immediate tap, rack bang procedure as it could result in a bad thing. i have also had random rounds require a double strike.
that being said if you want to use the tap, rack, bang action its just as easy with a non striker fired pistol so i see no downside to second strike.....quite the opposite.
When i speak of HK quality of old i speak of not only materials but also innovative design. i am sure the materials will be the same as the p30.
its a bit of a hard sell though IMO. the gun doesnt beat competitors prices so thats not really a selling point. it also offers nothing competitors dont from a design standpoint. So in the end all its only real selling point is the brand name. In a strange way they are just competing with themselves. There are lots of established brand names on the market now so i dont see it doing to well unless they give huge cuts to dealers to push the pistols over other manufacturers. there again i dont see HK doing this.
in the end sales will tell the story. I am sure people will rave about them after purchasing. then again, that can be said for most new products on the market....products that work anyways. again i just dont see the hype..its not that impressive.
that being said if you want to use the tap, rack, bang action its just as easy with a non striker fired pistol so i see no downside to second strike.....quite the opposite.
When i speak of HK quality of old i speak of not only materials but also innovative design. i am sure the materials will be the same as the p30.
its a bit of a hard sell though IMO. the gun doesnt beat competitors prices so thats not really a selling point. it also offers nothing competitors dont from a design standpoint. So in the end all its only real selling point is the brand name. In a strange way they are just competing with themselves. There are lots of established brand names on the market now so i dont see it doing to well unless they give huge cuts to dealers to push the pistols over other manufacturers. there again i dont see HK doing this.
in the end sales will tell the story. I am sure people will rave about them after purchasing. then again, that can be said for most new products on the market....products that work anyways. again i just dont see the hype..its not that impressive.
Mrgunsngear
New member
FWIW Impact has them for $599 pre-order.