Heartbreaker M70

[stagpanther]

Of all the firearms I've ever purchased and looked so much forward to--my winchester model 70 is the biggest heartbreaker of them all. I dreamed of having one for a long time and honestly never looked forward to getting a rifle as much as this one. I had worked on an old win 70 that was chambered in 270 weatherby magnum and I shot a one hole group at 200 yards with it using partitions when zeroing it--then and there I decided I had to have one. Winchester doesn't make them anymore, and ones on the auction blocks didn't look very good to me. So I ordered one in 270 wsm which I thought would be just as good.

My rifle was made entirely in FN's factory in Portugal (where the stocks were originally made) so I thought it would be higher quality than Winchester's normal "farm-out" at the time. Unfortunately, the bore showed signs of obvious damage from the rifling process--a spiral gouge cutting through both lands and grooves spiraled down about 5 inches of the bore near the muzzle end--and the MOA trigger rated adjustable down to 3 lbs I could never get to break any lighter than 4.25 lbs. Although that is a good setting for hunting--I wanted the ability to go lighter for load development. I just installed a Timney which supposedly gets the pull weight down to 1.5 lbs, but under 2 lbs it locks up.

My big mistake--and I guess I have myself to blame for it--is that I did not immediately return it without taking a shot through it. So I went the route of firing lapping with Tubb's bullets and while that did polish out some of the obvious damage, I generally get groups in the 1 to 1.5 MOA range. I know that's perfectly reasonable for any hunting rifle--it's only because I've shot other older ones that grouped much better that I'm disappointed.

 

[USAF Ret]

Of all the firearms I've ever purchased and looked so much forward to--my winchester model 70 is the biggest heartbreaker of them all. I dreamed of having one for a long time and honestly never looked forward to getting a rifle as much as this one. I had worked on an old win 70 that was chambered in 270 weatherby magnum and I shot a one hole group at 200 yards with it using partitions when zeroing it--then and there I decided I had to have one. Winchester doesn't make them anymore, and ones on the auction blocks didn't look very good to me. So I ordered one in 270 wsm which I thought would be just as good.

My rifle was made entirely in FN's factory in Portugal (where the stocks were originally made) so I thought it would be higher quality than Winchester's normal "farm-out" at the time. Unfortunately, the bore showed signs of obvious damage from the rifling process--a spiral gouge cutting through both lands and grooves spiraled down about 5 inches of the bore near the muzzle end--and the MOA trigger rated adjustable down to 3 lbs I could never get to break any lighter than 4.25 lbs. Although that is a good setting for hunting--I wanted the ability to go lighter for load development. I just installed a Timney which supposedly gets the pull weight down to 1.5 lbs, but under 2 lbs it locks up.

My big mistake--and I guess I have myself to blame for it--is that I did not immediately return it without taking a shot through it. So I went the route of firing lapping with Tubb's bullets and while that did polish out some of the obvious damage, I generally get groups in the 1 to 1.5 MOA range. I know that's perfectly reasonable for any hunting rifle--it's only because I've shot other older ones that grouped much better that I'm disappointed.

Beautiful rifle. That's a tough one. Shooting a rifle that is the one and then trying to find another, but having to settle. Then it does not meet the expectations.

 

[taylorce1]

I'm sorry you're disappointed in your new M70 rifle. I have a SC built Extreme Weather in .270, and it's one of my favorite rifles. I might have tried an Ernie the Gunsmith spring kit before buying the Timney.

I decided long ago, I didn't want to own a borescope. I figured what I didn't know wasn't going to hurt me! Also how long it took me to clean told me most of what I needed to know about my bore.

However, that said you could always try to get Winchester to warranty the rifle. They have an MOA guarantee and if Winchester can't get it to shoot MOA they'll replace the barrel or the rifle. I'd put your MOA trigger back in and call Monday for a shipping label.

 

[stagpanther]

Well, I may have found a partial fix which is acceptable. I spent hours cleaning and lapping the barrel to do a bit more smoothing out of the rough spots and shiny clean. The problem is, I can only get a few shots out before the fouling is so heavy the groups open up significantly. After installing the new trigger--which definitely helped--the first 5 shot group wasn't bad especially considering I was shooting into very gusty quartering headwinds and my target was shaking a bit. I let the barrel cool between shots as well. The next 5 shots which were only a few tenths of a grain bigger charge opened up significantly. After getting home I was amazed at the fouling--it looks like a bore with 10 times as many bullets through it.

 

[Scorch]

I'll give ya fifty for it.

 

[stagpanther]

I'll give ya fifty for it.

Sorry, but I won't take a penny over 25.

 

[Nathan]

Have you bedded it? In my experience, factory barrel scars look bad and I worry about them a lot, but often the rifles shoot in spite of them as long as the crown and chamber look basically ok.

I also find trying 2-3 bullets which are a good match for the twist rate can help….I know this is hard now.

…but then again your 240yd group looks good to me.

Good move with the Timney. My Timney is good enough that I don’t buy the Jewell. I suppose a Jewell would be better, but I think that is not available for the MOA trigger.

 

[Paul B.]

One of my hunting partners told me his .270 WSM was one of the most difficult rifles he owned to find a decent group. Took a bit of work and experimentation to reach success but he did finally get the type of groups he was looking for.
Paul B.

 

[stagpanther]

Have you bedded it? In my experience, factory barrel scars look bad and I worry about them a lot, but often the rifles shoot in spite of them as long as the crown and chamber look basically ok.

Both pillared and bedded--it's rock solid. It shoots well for a few shots from a clean bore, but the fouling is "intense" and copper skid marks build up fast. It took me over an hour to get the bore clean after firing just 10 shots through a clean bore.

ook a bit of work and experimentation to reach success but he did finally get the type of groups he was looking for.

I believe it. Up til now I've worked mostly with 140 and 150 grain bullets, this was my first try with the 130 gr hunting hybrids which I figure were moving along just under 3200 fps. It's a sharp kicker for a relatively mid-sized magnum.

 

[Pathfinder45]

It's a good project for you, Stagpanther. For whatever reason, you just can't simply buy a rifle and a couple of boxes of regular cartridges, go hunting, come home with game, and be happy about it. I don't think you roll that way, even though you would be better served if you did.
No, but you must briggle with it, fixing things that ain't broke. Apparently, this rifle is perfect for you; embrace the project.

 

[stagpanther]

For whatever reason, you just can't simply buy a rifle and a couple of boxes of regular cartridges, go hunting, come home with game, and be happy about it.

What fun would that be?

 

[Pathfinder45]

What fun would that be?/QUOTE]
Nyuck, nyuck, nyuck....just as I thought!
Allow me to suggest that for a near future project that you look for an orphaned pre-'64 model 70 Winchester that needs a fair amount of TLC, and go from there. Just a standard 270 or 30-'06 is the way to go.
Fat magnums eat up magazine capacity but they offer so much more in exchange..... I was just examining a box of Superformance 264 Winchester Magnum ammo yesterday that featured 130 bullets at a whopping 3,100 fps! And the 20 round box was only $94! But, no doubt, the WSM's take things to a whole new level.
Still, a hunting rifle is one thing and a target rifle is quite another thing. I do like the original model 70 trigger, being entirely satisfied with it.
Good luck with the new rifle; it looks nice enough to me.

 

[stagpanther]

I have done "recovery" projects on old model 70's--that's how I developed a lust for them to begin with. I like controlled feed--but really don't care if it's pushfeed instead, I rarely go on a safari where I might take a shot hanging upside down in a tree. I prefer the old style trigger over the new MOA trigger, the one concession I'll give to the newer model 70's is that I don't miss the complicated bottom metal and 3 screws the older ones have. I've shot a friend's new rifle (a Christiansen) in 6.8 western and was very impressed with that cartridge, if I were to get a 270 class magnum again that would be it.

 

[std7mag]

Ok, i gotta ask...

What's a "VLD Hunting Hybrid"???

I shoot a fair bit of the VLD Hunting bullets.
Been trying to find some of the Hybrid bullets to try.
But haven't heard of a VLD Hybrid.

 

[stagpanther]

What's a "VLD Hunting Hybrid"???

I guess technically I should leave off the VLD part, although I think the hybrid is a blend of the secant and tangent ogives, but I stand corrected.

 

[tango1niner]

What is the twist ? Could your choice of powder be contributing to the severe fouling ?

 

[stagpanther]

What is the twist ? Could your choice of powder be contributing to the severe fouling ?

I don't think it's a powder or twist issue--the bore had a significant gouge and pitting when I got it. I made the decision to try to fix it myself long ago--so I bare no grudge with Winchester--that was my choice. I've sent lots of barrels and firearms back in my time, this kind of thing actually happens pretty often, even with top-name productions.

 

[Paul B.]

"I do like the original model 70 trigger, being entirely satisfied with it"

I agree. They should have left it alone.

On fouling barrels, I have a Winchester M70 XTR Featherweight in 7x57 that fouled so badly accuracy was gone in 20 rounds. Removing the jacket material took many long hours. I finally broke down and got a Wheeler fire lapping kit. I kind of cheated a bit by using cast bullets instead of jacketed and only five rounds of each grit rather than the ten specified in the instructions. It worked out quite well. The barrel still fouls some but it's fairly easy to clean. Accuracy was greatly improved as well. I haven't taken any game with it yet but I do plan on using it come my next hunt.
Paul B.

 

[stagpanther]

I finally broke down and got a Wheeler fire lapping kit

I did the same with a full application of Tubb's fire lapping bullets--in addition to subsequent hand-lapping. I can get a group or two down the barrel before they open up; but copper "caking" is still heavy.

 

[jmr40]

I rarely go on a safari where I might take a shot hanging upside down in a tree. I prefer the old style trigger over the new MOA trigger,

A common misconception about CRF. A PF rifle will feed at least as reliably hanging upsided down from a tree.

A PF rifle FEEDS rounds from the magazine and into the chamber just as reliably as CRF, maybe more so. CRF's advantage is MUCH more reliable extraction and ejection. Especially in harsh dirty conditions or where snow or ice could be involved. Of course, you can't feed another round into the chamber until you extract and eject the previous cartridge. Fired or unfired.

CRF is popular for hunting dangerous game because the rifle is more likely to function even if it has been dropped in mud, dirt, or snow. And the old-style model 70 trigger is part of that "no excuses" reliability equation. That trigger is less crisp and harder to tune for great accuracy, but it will work when others don't. And it is simple to clean if something does happen.

Granted, few of us will ever be in a position where CRF reliability is ever an advantage. Most of us are willing to sacrifice a little reliability we probably will never need for a less expensive rifle that is probably more accurate.

I have and use both types and 90% of the time I could care less. I don't hunt dangerous game and if I have a rifle fail to extract or eject, I won't die. But the farther I hunt from the road, and the harsher the weather the more comfortable I am that my CRF rifle will work.