Head Shot...would you attempt it???

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miconoakisland

New member
Well...

Here's what I'd do if, heaven forbid, it ever came down to it.

I'd "zipper up" on the BG, meaning I'd start at the waist/pelvis, then work my way up to the head with each subsequent shot.

I have found that during rapid, surprise firing exercises that each shot goes just a bit higher due to recoil and less time is taken bringing the muzzle back down to the original poa.

During these exercises I usually expend around six shots. I'm not going to fire two shots COM then take time to re-evaluate to see if a head shot is needed. If I hit the pelvis area and it is effective, the BG will start to go down, so maybe the third shot will be a head shot.

For me, I realize my tendancies, and have adapted my "panic scenario". If I'm in such a situation where I need to fire, I will, but will start at the bottom and work up as quickly as possible. I just want the BG to go down and stay down!

I learned early playing Pop Warner Football to watch the hips while going in for a tackle, the head, shoulders, arms may say one thing, the legs and feet another, but the hips never lie about where he is going.

I'm just going to try to hit a blob of BG at the end of my front sight and I think this method is the best way for me to do that most effectively. It incorporates all previous post techniques while factoring in the rapid fire creep upwards during stress. I aim once at the right front thigh area (BG's right) and just rapid fire naturally (I tend to fire high and just slightly right during quick stress rapid fire).

Just something else to consider.
 
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k9lwt

New member
Quote:

I was trained to shoot by people who knew what they were about and had been there, unlike many army skill-at-arms instructors who have read it in the instructional manual and teach a style of combat shooting more akin to the range.

So was I and we still teach 2 COM, 1 CNS. They are actually still "there" on a routine basis and they still teach this method. As firearms instructors, we still teach this method. Sometimes we are teaching to the least common denominator when we are instructing. Not everyone is going to be able to make a head shot each time they shoot. COM is a much larger, more forgiving (if you aren't exact) target. It's not a range thing, it's a shoot to stop thing. Successful CNS shots will obviously stop the target, but we can't teach everyone to just double tap the CNS.
 
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miconoakisland

New member
Ahh! Thank you Sir William!

I was ignorant that there was such an acronym for such a tactic!

Are there any bad things I am not aware of using this method?

I use this method when training since it seems logical to my style/habits, but since no one else has mentioned this here, I am skeptical of my soundness!

What are the pro/cons of this method?
 
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stevelyn

New member
pax +1

The AK DPS Academy and APSC certified instructors teach Failure-to-Stop with two shots COM and one CNS. The drills are conducted from both the "guard" and holster at 2 and 7 yrds.
Is it correct? Who knows? I've never been in a gun fight, but if I ever am I hope my training takes over and I perform at least as well against the bg as I do the timer.
 
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hph1911

New member
Just my 2 cents. In most of my training classes the concensus was to "shoot him to the ground"....center mass each shot while moving away until he hits the ground. If his head gets in the way as he's going down, that's a good thing.
I don't believe I would go for a head shot after two CM. Just me, when the fecal matter hits the fan I'm not sure I could concentrate on changing my aim point despite my training, practicing, and IDPA head shots. Hope I never have to find that out.

PH
 
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SamD

New member
As my shooting ability has improved over the years, I have been moving more and more toward The British Soldiers point of view. Even non fatal headshots slow 'em down faster than a COM hit that misses the spine. In a pinch you can always move lower if needed.

Start working on a business card tacked to a fencepost at 7 yards as your first step.

Sam
 
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CraigJS

New member
Using post #1's set up I'd try this.
After the COM didn't work and he was bull rushing me from 15' I don't think I'd have time to do an aimed CNS shot. I'd drop my weak hand to a stop (arm extended) position, draw my gun up and back to my strong side shoulder. As he closed to aprox. 5' I'd start shooting for lower neck (above vest area), face area.. The weak side hand would be to try to hold him back enough to get at least one good shot to his face. If he had a knife I would expect to get cut. (this most likely will happen at any knife fight distance) If he had a club of some sort I'd go for a higher weak hand defence stance. This is why I try to train each time I shoot (point shooting) as quickly as possible at 2-3 yards. I don't know how this will work, do any of us really, but for me I think this is my best action...
I'm assumming he doesn't have a gun other wise why would he be bull rushing me.
CraigJS
 
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Sir William

New member
The PAC-B was an accepted combat technique in both military and police use decades ago. It fell out of favour due to the fact that gross wounding was not considered sporting. I prefer it as it inflicts gross wounds, pain and often rapid exsanguation. (blood loss) You do zip up from the pelvic girdle and walk toward your attacker if there is no cover/concealment. Disabilizing wounds are the goal. A shot to the brain is the last resort. I was a little taken aback to see the zipper referenced. Mafia hit men often use a modified version to inflict torture and pain before killing.
 
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Topthis

New member
Ouch!!! I just read the post response about...shooting the BG in the groin!!! Please...shoot me in the head!!
 
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Capt. Charlie

Moderator Emeritus
The PAC-B was an accepted combat technique in both military and police use decades ago.
Click to expand...
We're training in something similar now for face-to-face encounters (3 feet or less). The drill goes like this: BG goes for weapon (or on the whistle at the range ;) ), you do an upward sweep and push-off with your weak hand. At the same time, step back with your gun-side leg, speed draw, strong hand low tuck, and fire two into the pelvic area. Continue backing away and immediately come to a high point Weaver and fire COM while backing until the problem's solved. It's a good range drill and a fun exercise, and has a solid place for real world encounters as well.
 
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Sir William

New member
Capt. Charlie, many SROs are being taught PAC-B for active shooters. Atlanta/Fulton County LEOs and CSOs/COs are being trained in this method since the courthouse murders/escape.
 
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Doug.38PR

Moderator
Hmmm....it's hard to say, something like that would happen between 2-5 seconds most likely.
Depending on the distance, I would say I would probably do the two to the head, maybe 3 or 4. But after getting hit with 2 rounds in the chest and he was coming at me within 15 feet, yes I would take the head shot, I think I could make it within 15 feet.
 
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miconoakisland

New member
Sir William,

I think the Mafia version was either a slow torture while the victim was tied to a chair, or a machine-gun version of hitting the target with a burst from the tommy-gun.

My version is by no means "sporting" and having no formal training other than becoming familiar with my firearms and style, I figured this method would work best when I really needed it without too much mental interference.

It's actually gratifying to see you and Capt. Charlie discuss my ignorant .02 worth on this subject!

Aim once and fire six! I won't be concerned about what is beyond my target if ever in that situation, my focus is solely on the BG and I can't have a "what if" is beyond that target thought to slow me down mentally while defending my life!

I practice nailing the bulls-eye, I practice drawing and moving, firing and moving, but mostly I practice drawing, rapid fire and moving to my right
as fast as possible and tossing as much lead as possible.

No 2 COM, evaluate, head shot, head shot, head shot for me! Zip it and get it over with asap!
 
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Sir William

New member
Michael Collins and a group of supporters used the PAC-B often. They would generally ride bicycles. Their target was demobilized, shot multiple times and then headshot. This was graphically shown in the movie. It was one thing they got correct in the movie. It is gaining favour again as LE agencies are becoming more responsive to active shooters. It is a good method for surviving in a armed conflict.
 
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pax

New member
Incidentally, it occurs to me that any method of doing something different, even one that someone else says isn't optimal, is probably better than continuing to do the thing that isn't working.

pax
 
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CraigJS

New member
Weeg,
Thats why in the circumstances origionally stated, I would try the stand off point shoot to the neck and head as the BG closed to the 3-5' range.. I don't know that with a moving target comming at me ( with a certain amount of side to side movement due to their quick/running attack) my reaction time, my ability to aim that quickly/accurately, that I could expect a good hit.. At 3' with pistol held high (right chest/armpit area) my gun would be at the aprox height of most BG's high chest/face area.. I'm 6'-1"
I just hope to hell that NONE of us ever have to test out our therorys.
Best wishes for the new year to you all!
CraigJS
 
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Mikeyboy

New member
I think it depends on the situation. In a bull rush situation from a longer distance I think I would zipper the guy. If it is point blank within a few feet with an armed mugger who doesn't knows I have a CW, I would go for the head shot first. If the guy already has a hold on me , I would shot him anywhere I can. This is all theory though, who know how you will react when the SHTF. I have been drilling double taps to the body and one to the head at the range, but pratice and panic are two different things.
 
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