Handgun history question

[44 AMP]

Yes, but I think the Europeans were likelier to go to the long gun sooner than Americans, pre-SWAT, anyhow.

This is interesting, do you consider an SMG to be a "long gun"??

I was in Germany in the later 70s, the police always patrolled in pairs, one with a 9mm pistol, the other with a 9mm SMG.

My question about SMGs was in reference to the German police carrying them, virtually everywhere.

 

[tipoc]

It's my impression that the police force didn't widely issue 1911's as part of their progression from revolver to semi-auto sidearms. It's as if they skipped it. Is that true?

Yes. The 1911 was not widely adopted by law enforcement either before WWII or after. While not widely used it did have a presence in both 45 acp and 38 Super. Let's skip to the post war period.

The transition from revolvers to semis did not really begin until the late 1960's early 1970's it was a slow transition. It did not really take off until the mid 1980s.

For most of the 20th century the revolver was the gun of law enforcement by preference. Both law enforcement in general and the public were loath to give it up. The semi was considered a military weapon, a "ammo burner" a "jam'o'matic". The transition was slow.

The main reason the 1911 or any other single action pistol (like the Hi- Power) was passed over at the end of WWII was a change in military doctrine in the U.S. and elsewhere concerning pistols.

In the U.S. and internationally doctrine came to favor the da/sa pistol with a decocker and more than 10 rounds of 9mm ammo as the way to go. The greater number of rounds were considered a plus and the guns better suited to military and law enforcement use than a single action. Both the guns and the ammo were lighter and easier to carry. The U.S. in 1946 wanted to leave the 1911 behind and move to a da/sa gun in 9mm but the Army (Congress actually) could not afford the transition away from the 1911 until 1986 and the adoption of the Beretta 92.

Now many Police departments had switched to semis. Smith and Wessons led the way. But with the adoption by the U.S. military of the M9 and the M11 the flood gates were open and the "wondernines" were all over the place and in the holsters of cops. In the late 1980's (1998-89) Glock showed up and by the early 1990s the transition was headed to being complete.

tipoc

 

[SATRP]

Didn't the US Military "gift" a lot of surplus 1911-A1's to rural law enforcement agencies that lacked financial resources after WWII?

 

[Mike Irwin]

I don't know about 1911s, but I do know that after World War I the military gave a LOT of Enfield M1917 rifles and M1917 revolvers (Colt & S&W) to various law enforcement groups.

The US Border Patrol in the 1920s was officially armed with M1917s. Charles Askins talks about how new recruits would carry those only until they could afford to get themselves something different, normally a Colt or S&W .38 and a Winchester M1907 semi-auto in .351.

 

[tipoc]

Interesting to know that the first company to make a semi in the U.S. in 9mm was Colt when it introduced the Colt Commander in 1949 in 45 acp, 38 Super and 9mm. This was Colt's effort to convince the Army that it did not need to drop the 1911 to get a lighter weight gun.

This was followed a few years later in 1955 by S&Ws Model 39. A da/sa pistols in 9mm. This was used in Viet Nam and made it's way to law enforcement in the U.S. years later.

tipoc

 

[5whiskey]

Although we had a small cadre of individuals who resisted firearms training the majority enthusiastically participated firing over 100,000 rounds of pistol ammunition each year. Pretty good for a department of approximately 125 officers.

I will also chime in and say that a lot of this "most cops aren't gun people and hardly ever ever practice" can't be used as a blanket statement. My agency isn't large, but it's not tiny at 50 sworn. I would say a solid 2/3rds are, in fact, "gun people" in that they have numerous firearms, buy/sell/trade to get newer items, and shoot at least more frequently than annual qualification (and often at least monthly). Same goes for most agencies around me as well.

I get it, if you go to many agencies in areas where the sporting use of firearms is much less popular then yeah, many if not most cops won't be "gun people." But, there are many areas outside of LA or NYC.