Handgun Deer

[SteelChickenShooter]

There are no shortages of 357 & 44 Mag topics posted in the revolver as well as the hunting sections. There is always speculation and advice coming from those that do well with either or some don't suggest a 357 Mag for deer at all.
This is my firsthand account. Opening day I shot a good size 8-point buck at extreme close range with the 44Mag Super Red Hawk. I can say I was not overly impressed. The aftermath just was not what I was expecting. I can't be proud of myself as I watched that deer briefly suffer and fight for life. I hit it pretty well placed, through both lungs and out the other side. The entry and exits wounds were not so large as I imagined they could be with the 44. Based on my very own experience, I can't see me using a 357 Mag for deer. Maybe the results would be the same at such close distance. It just seems to me the 357 would be a little on the too small side for good size deer hunting. I imagine as I saw the impact, and the deer reaction...I imagine using a 357Mag would be sort of weak. The 44Mag sure is pretty powerful, but it seemed like the deer was stronger. Ballistic tables and water jugs are one thing. Actually seeing the impact and watching how the animal dies is another. The 357 is less powerful than the 44 Mag, and I am beginning to think maybe a handgun with even more power than a 44 Mag would be more appropriate. For me, certainly nothing less than a 44 mag. Or maybe abandon the idea of taking a deer entirely using a handgun. No doubt there sure can be some novelty in taking a good size deer with one. I might be better off with a shotgun when I visualize how I was not so impressed with the actual hit using the 44. It certainly didn't seem to be "knock down power". More of a severe wound depriving the poor beast the breath of life. I'm rambling now.

 

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

Depends on bones, animal girth, H.P or not. Velocity of cartridge.
Any animal's fight for life is impressive. Instead of watching the suffering & death throws. Do what many fellow hunters do. Help the animal pass from this world. {by a second well placed shot} I've always shown and practiced that behavior over the years with my downed large game. Trophy or not it make's no difference. {I'll let my taxidermist worry about the extra hole}
As for the 357. Consider how many deer were taken with the 38-55 rifle years ago and some yet today. 38-55 has near the same speed as the 357 but has a little heavier bullet is all. Close range 50-75 yrds. I think the 357 would be an excellent cartridge for the purpose. If you want to see something amazing. Load up either of the two cartridge commented on here in a rifle. You'll notice a huge improvement over their use in a pistol. I wonder what type of bullet you were using the day you harvested your 8-point? (curious is all)
BTW. Congrads on your trophy 8-point taken with a pistol. That's something to be really proud of.

 

[BerdanSS]

Hmm.....oddly enough I just had a long conversation with the firearms dept. manager at a local sporting good store, on this exact topic. In his years of experience he said he has had to track wounded deer pretty much every time he used a .357, even with a rifle. He also told me that he to had less than satisfactory performance with a .44 mag pistol. But with A rifle chambered in .44 he has the up most confidence, which led me to buy my first pistol caliber rifle ever this past Friday.

I still believe .357 and .44 pistols are more than capable of taking deer. Just under certain conditions, maybe not as cleanly as we would like.


Do you recall the approximate range? Also what bullet where you using?

 

[SteelChickenShooter]

Distance was 10 feet.
Ammo was either one of the common Remington or Winchester 240 gr soft point "Hunting" loads. Actually they are a little flat on the end. The Ruger is the 7 1/2" model. I suppose at such a close range the bullet just punched right through both sides and lungs lickety split. Maybe not making much of a wound channel at all. Maybe one of the newer designed hollow-points, something like the Hornady brand could be a better choice.

 

[Ruger480]

A close second to shot placement is bullet construction/design. The idea is to dump as much energy into the target as possible, which is why HPs make for such good hunting rounds. I looked at what I think you described as using and that bullet probably zipped right through without depositing much energy. Hence your experience.
Before you completely swear off handgun hunting, try a more aggressive HP.

 

[big al hunter]

This may be just my opinion, so take it with a grain of salt.

You were able to see the animal in the last throws of its life. That tells me it did not run off a long distance to die. I have seen the same things, as I too have taken deer with handguns. I have also seen many deer take a bullet from rifles, shotguns, and muzzle loaders. Most of them ran out of sight before expiring. The difference between handguns and rifles is that you are close enough to witness the final struggle of the animal.

Your 44 mag did exactly what it should have, and what most of us would expect it to.

 

[buck460XVR]

A more aggressive HP at that close of range probably would have not done any more damage and maybe even less. A double lung shot is a quick kill, but not instant. Shoot the same buck in the same spot with a 180gr 30-06 and it will take the same amount of time to die, and the deer will fight just as hard to live. Death is not pretty. At longer ranges tho, the animal has generally done it's fighting and has passed by the time the hunter gets there....not so much at 10 feet.

I might be better off with a shotgun when I visualize how I was not so impressed with the actual hit using the 44. It certainly didn't seem to be "knock down power". More of a severe wound depriving the poor beast the breath of life.

Again.....basically that is what one does with any weapon, be it handgun, long gun or bow. One needs to accept that fact when goin' to the woods to kill something. It seems to me that the .44 was not the "weak" link in the scenario. It did it's job exactly as it has been advertised.

 

[Ruger480]

A more aggressive HP at that close of range probably would have not done any more damage and maybe even less

Do you have supporting information on this?
I am curious. I've never heard of a hollow point doing less damage than a solid point.

 

[buck460XVR]

I use the same bullets for deer in my .44 handguns as I do in my .44 mag carbines. 240gr JSPs. They mushroom and dump energy but stay together and generally leave an exit wound. Something that does not always happen with JHPs, specially at close range. At close range or the slightly higher velocities of handgun caliber carbines, IME, JHPs tend to over expand, dump too much energy and do not always penetrate deeply or exit. If you are shooting from an elevated stand, an exit wound at the bottom of the body is much preferable to one hole on the animals back, and two holes always leave more blood trail than one. If HPs bullets are such great deer hunting tools, why don' t you see more of them in rifle loads? Even in slow moving calibers like 30/30 and .32 special, JSPs are the norm. I tend to keep the HPs for the range and for SD/HD and prefer JSPs for deer, in both .357 and .44 mag. This is what I am most comfortable with and what works best for me.

 

[shortwave]

Do you have supporting information on this?
I am curious. I've never heard of a hollow point doing less damage than a solid point

There is just no way of guaranteeing the amount of expansion(or lack of) of any given HP. There are many vids. out showing well known HP's not expanding for one reason or another. Usually the cavity in the HP getting plugged at first contact of target making the HP act similar to a RN or FN projectile. A quick search should give more then enough examples.

 

[22-rimfire]

The main thing with hollow points on deer is that they might not penetrate all the way through the deer leaving the exit wound.

Death is part of hunting. It almost always make me feel bad on deer sized game. But I'm hunting..... I'm not there to take pictures.....

The thing about your deer is that you are seldom so close to hear all the sounds.

I also agree with your statement about using a 357 mag for whitetail deer. I just don't think the 357 is quite big enough. I shifted up to 480 Ruger because I wanted more killing power (quickly) on deer over a 41 mag and I have used hollow points (325 XTP) loads. They work. Still take the 41 mag out especially if I carry a rifle.

I want a caliber that can break bones.

 

[Ruger480]

I did a quick search for HP vids and didn't find results concerning HPs failing to perform.
I'm going to stick by my original post and recommend a better constructed hollow point bullet.

As the question of Hollow point bullets in rifles, there are tons of them. Granted they now sport some sort of plastic tip to improve ballistics but they are out there.

 

[shortwave]

The main thing with hollow points on deer is that they might not penetrate all the way through the deer leaving the exit wound.

Very true. A broadside shot in which the HP passes through not hitting a bone, even a rib, it's possible to not have much(or any) expansion acting much like a RN or FN. Just a small entrance and exit wound.

Whereas the same HP bullet hitting a shoulder(or larger bone) will expand, expending its energy and possibly not having enough momentum to exit the body.

Just never cared to use HP's out of a handgun for deer size game for this reason.

Far as the death of an animal, we all want the animal to expire as soon as we pull the trigger. It just doesn't happen all the time no matter the weapon used. And is not ever pleasant to me. That's hunting.

If possible, a follow-up shot on a downed 'fighting' deer is always best.

 

[shortwave]

Ruger 480

Just a quick search.

Do Hollow Points Always Expand - Shooters Forum
www.shootersforum.com/...do-hollow-points-always-expand.html

...and this. Especially down at the 'Speed Kills' section.

Handguns and Hollow Points | Human Events
www.humanevents.com/2011/03/08/handguns-and-hollow-points

 

[buck460XVR]

Originally posted by Ruger480:
I'm going to stick by my original post and recommend a better constructed hollow point bullet.

Bullet construction in the OPs scenario would have made no difference. A double lung shot with an exit wound is a humane and a relatively quick kill with any .429'' projectile. A lung shot deer takes X amount of time to die, any experienced deer hunter knows this, and the deer will display agony until it expires. But it is not the consequence of the caliber or the bullet construction. It is a consequence of anatomy and how animals react when shot. Nature of the beast. Having to watch a animal expire, even quickly, is not a pleasant thing to witness and is why we strive for quick and clean kills. But it is going to happen, regularly, if one is a successful deer hunter and is even more evident when the animal is well within sight and hearing. If one cannot accept that fact, they generally don't hunt for long.

As for the choice of HPs vs JSPs or Hard Cast, one needs to use what they have the most confidence in and feel most confident with. One needs to make this decision on what works well outta their firearm and what has proven the most successful for them. This choice will not be the same for all, and it doesn't need to be. Doesn't make anyone wrong and can most certainly make everyone correct, as the choice isn't to make other folks happy, but to make quick, clean kills.

 

[Guv]

How bout a 357 Max?

 

[SteelChickenShooter]

There certainly has been some very well thought out, comforting and superbly expressed ideas and opinions here so far. I want to thank every one. This is my first buck. I didn't feel the elation I see on the hunting TV shows. Hell, I didn't even have any black shoe polish all over my face. The deer just looked at me. And the sounds- yes the up close and personal sounds gasping for air from shot out lungs. Maybe I'm not so much of a real hunter. Yes all the venison chops, steaks, backstrap, sausage and spicy sticks sure are good. Venison meatloaf is outstanding. I might be better off tending to the camp fire. Let the other guys do the damage. Well there's more deer season to go, and I still have a tag for antlerless. Maybe I'll load up with a stout Hornady hollowpoint and see how it goes. As you may tell from my rambling, it's sort of a mix between wondering about ammo, firearms, and a little shooter remorse. But thanks again to all so far. Reading your replies makes me feel a bit better.

 

[big al hunter]

and a little shooter remorse. But thanks again to all so far. Reading your replies makes me feel a bit better.

The first time I witnessed a deer taking its last breaths had me feeling some remorse as well. That is the thing that drives me to make sure of my shot. It gets easier the more you see it, but its good that it does not completely go away.

 

[Guv]

It also can wear on you as you get older, I seem to watch more than shoot and am happy doing that. You have to do what you are comfortable with and if that means stepping back and re-thinking your part in this old sport then so be it, it's your choice.

 

[Guv]

I shot an 8 point buck last evening at about 125yds with a 165gr Speer HotCore round nose soft point out of a 308. Like your shot the bullet traveled through both lungs and after about a 50yd trek through some pretty rough brush we found him. This in my opinion is a typical lung shot reaction so don't sell your 44mag short or think you did something wrong, just how it goes.