Gunzines fake new Sig P210 tests
- Thread starter Wild Romanian
- Start date
Wild Romanian
Moderator
I have owned and shot both the Sig p210 and the various Hk squeeze cockers. I have found the trigger pull on the p210 to be superb. The HK has a long mushy pull. The sighting radius of the p210 is quite long making aiming error much less than with the much shorter sighting radius of the Hk squeeze cocker. The Hk heats up very quickly which certainly does not contribute to long barrel life. The sig p210 has superb balance and feels as good in the hand as the world famous High Power. The Hk in my hand feels as well balanced as my 3/8 variable speed electric hand drill. In short there is no comparison on this point. The manual of arms on the Hk is very strange to people used to conventional automatics. I tend to accidentally shoot mine off if I do not concetrate on squeezing the cocker and not pulling the trigger simultaniously. I would hope I would never have to use one in a serious situation because if I pointed one at someone they would probably accidently get shot even if I did not intend to shoot at them. The Hk has proved quite accurate but when placed in the human hand it falls far short of the accuracy of the p210. Both guns may have great accuracy potential but the p210 is the far better target pistol often rivaling custom built hand guns.. The p210 is not without its faults. It has a bottom magazine release (although the new model has a side release). It is much to big a handgun to carry concealed comfortably. It has a limited 8 round magazine capacity.
In conclusion I think that the Hk is a great collectors item and curiousity but the worlds military and police departments and shooters in general have gone on to better handguns. History has already proved that the Hk design was a dead end on the ever growning tree of 9mm wonder nines. There are safer , lighter and more realiable handguns on the worlds market. W.R.
In conclusion I think that the Hk is a great collectors item and curiousity but the worlds military and police departments and shooters in general have gone on to better handguns. History has already proved that the Hk design was a dead end on the ever growning tree of 9mm wonder nines. There are safer , lighter and more realiable handguns on the worlds market. W.R.
I like P7s but I don't think it's comparable to a Sig 210. I've never owned a 210 but to me the 210 is more like my PPC gun. It's a specialized target shooting gun. For me the P7 is the safest and fastest shooting self defense gun, however I shoot more accurately at 50 yards with my PPC revolver than with the P7.
Both the P7 and the 210 are better than average guns but they have different suitability.
JohnW
Both the P7 and the 210 are better than average guns but they have different suitability.
JohnW
VictorLouis
New member
Wakal said,
"I base my observations on facts, not information found in a book. Books are a fine place to START learning..."
Well, after three P7s over the years myself, MY observations mirror that of what Ayoob said in the book.
But, I do share your sentiment. NO gun is the be-all-to-end-all in the world of personal defense. I just wish the diehard 1911 and Glock fanatics would have the intellectual honesty to admit it, also.
"I base my observations on facts, not information found in a book. Books are a fine place to START learning..."
Well, after three P7s over the years myself, MY observations mirror that of what Ayoob said in the book.
But, I do share your sentiment. NO gun is the be-all-to-end-all in the world of personal defense. I just wish the diehard 1911 and Glock fanatics would have the intellectual honesty to admit it, also.Wild Romanian,
What you have pointed out, is indeed very disturbing. This is precisely the kind of thing that made me want to start my own site.
I am sick and tired of the major gun magazines kow-towing to the major firearms and equipment manufacturers. It just drives me crazy. It's one thing to make a mistake. It's a whole other thing to deliberately deceive the public--especially with something like guns, where lives are on the line.
What you have pointed out, is indeed very disturbing. This is precisely the kind of thing that made me want to start my own site.
I am sick and tired of the major gun magazines kow-towing to the major firearms and equipment manufacturers. It just drives me crazy. It's one thing to make a mistake. It's a whole other thing to deliberately deceive the public--especially with something like guns, where lives are on the line.
Wild Romanian, if you had that much trouble firing a P7, I wouldn't want to be withing rifle range of you if you ever were drawing and firing at the same time. Putting P7 and the phrase "wonder-9" in the same paragraph show a lot about your pistol knowledge. The two are mutually exclusive.
In general, the funniest thing is to see a person berating a P7 for heating up, then talking about accuracy. The only way you can get a P7 that hot is to empty 4 plus magazines at a rate which proves you aren't concentrating on your accuracy!
You have already demonstrated through your other remarks that you can't operate a P7 safely. If you have to concentrate as much as you say you do to fire it properly, how can you possibly concentrate enough to shoot it accurately? So how could you then be a plausible observer about its accuracy merits compared to a P210???
In general, the funniest thing is to see a person berating a P7 for heating up, then talking about accuracy. The only way you can get a P7 that hot is to empty 4 plus magazines at a rate which proves you aren't concentrating on your accuracy!
You have already demonstrated through your other remarks that you can't operate a P7 safely. If you have to concentrate as much as you say you do to fire it properly, how can you possibly concentrate enough to shoot it accurately? So how could you then be a plausible observer about its accuracy merits compared to a P210???
"I have a dream"
I have a dream that one day gun owners will realize that all guns are good at some things, and not as good at others.
I have a dream, that one day, lovers of Glocks, Sigs, 1911's and all makes will be able to sit down together at the table of defense.
but I digress...
I tend to doubt the claims of Massad Ayoob that he fired 5000 rounds in his P7 without a failure. It is indeed a VERY dirty gun, as any P7 owner will tell you. However, if numerous people on the range at the LFI course hade malfunction it was because of one of two reasons:
1. dirty gun. If the P7 gets dirty, it will jam.
2. Bad ammo.
Otherwise the P7 is, indeed the most reliable semi-automatic handgun in the world, bar none. This is due in part to the fluted chamber, which allows the gun to fire without an ejector. Jams tend to occur in Semi-Autos when the round doesn't eject. The P7 has 2 sources of reliable ejection.
As far as accuracy goes... most people agree a single action is more accurate than a double action, the P7 is, for all practical purposes a single action firearm.
Safety? Questioning the safety of the P7 is simply absurd. You don't get any more safe than the squeeze cocking system. It requires that two independent levers be squeezed, the trigger and the grip. Just like doubling up on ejections systems for improved reliability, they doubled up on firing systems for improves safety, and it is easier to remember to remove it than removing the safety on a 1911 or Sig, or USP...
However... for some people the gun is an improper size, and for some poeple, they manual of arms is too difficult to get used to. For some people carrying a 1911 cocked and locked is too dangerous, for others using a Glock which has a safety on the trigger defies the purpose of a safety.
Each gun has its own niche. The P7 is NOT suitable as a military firearm. Glocks, and Sigs are. The P7 was designed as a Police gun. That is what it is best used as. It is, however equally suitable as a self defense gun. It is high maintenance, and high cost, and it DOES get hot if you fire too many bullets too quickly, but if you drink 100 cups of coffee too quickly you will die. Doesn't mean I have trouble downing 3.
All guns malfunction, "but mine never has", good, neither has a properly cared for P7. Glocks malfunction, Sigs malfunction, 1911's malfunction, revlolvers malfunction. Some people shoot Sigs better, other people shoot 1911's better, other people shoot P7's better. These are all issues with the shooter, and not with the design.
Knocking a P7 for reliability, safety or accuracy, is nonsense. Now... knocking it for being expensive as all hell, heavy, dirty, high maintenance... is another matter.
-Morgan
I have a dream that one day gun owners will realize that all guns are good at some things, and not as good at others.
I have a dream, that one day, lovers of Glocks, Sigs, 1911's and all makes will be able to sit down together at the table of defense.
but I digress...
I tend to doubt the claims of Massad Ayoob that he fired 5000 rounds in his P7 without a failure. It is indeed a VERY dirty gun, as any P7 owner will tell you. However, if numerous people on the range at the LFI course hade malfunction it was because of one of two reasons:
1. dirty gun. If the P7 gets dirty, it will jam.
2. Bad ammo.
Otherwise the P7 is, indeed the most reliable semi-automatic handgun in the world, bar none. This is due in part to the fluted chamber, which allows the gun to fire without an ejector. Jams tend to occur in Semi-Autos when the round doesn't eject. The P7 has 2 sources of reliable ejection.
As far as accuracy goes... most people agree a single action is more accurate than a double action, the P7 is, for all practical purposes a single action firearm.
Safety? Questioning the safety of the P7 is simply absurd. You don't get any more safe than the squeeze cocking system. It requires that two independent levers be squeezed, the trigger and the grip. Just like doubling up on ejections systems for improved reliability, they doubled up on firing systems for improves safety, and it is easier to remember to remove it than removing the safety on a 1911 or Sig, or USP...
However... for some people the gun is an improper size, and for some poeple, they manual of arms is too difficult to get used to. For some people carrying a 1911 cocked and locked is too dangerous, for others using a Glock which has a safety on the trigger defies the purpose of a safety.
Each gun has its own niche. The P7 is NOT suitable as a military firearm. Glocks, and Sigs are. The P7 was designed as a Police gun. That is what it is best used as. It is, however equally suitable as a self defense gun. It is high maintenance, and high cost, and it DOES get hot if you fire too many bullets too quickly, but if you drink 100 cups of coffee too quickly you will die. Doesn't mean I have trouble downing 3.
All guns malfunction, "but mine never has", good, neither has a properly cared for P7. Glocks malfunction, Sigs malfunction, 1911's malfunction, revlolvers malfunction. Some people shoot Sigs better, other people shoot 1911's better, other people shoot P7's better. These are all issues with the shooter, and not with the design.
Knocking a P7 for reliability, safety or accuracy, is nonsense. Now... knocking it for being expensive as all hell, heavy, dirty, high maintenance... is another matter.
-Morgan
don't shoot it's me
New member
I'm with PV...if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the P7. BTW, I've never accidentally fired mine and I'm glad it's my primary carry piece....it's not a gun for the masses and I like that....true genious is never appreciated in it's own lifetime.....
don't shoot it's me
New member
and i know genius doesn't have an o in it.....
Wild Romanian
Moderator
For those of you who like the squeeze cockers by all means enjoy them, but let us all face reality. I believe it was the New Jersey State Police that once issued these weapons. I remember reading that they withdrew them from service. There were just too many officers who either accidentally shot themselves or accidentally shot suspects that they were covering. In the real world if the average user runs into safety problems with a weapon or realiablity problems the weapon soon becomes a liablilty to those concerned with it.
John Browning was the worlds most famous and prolific arms inventor (180 pantents). He tried not once but several times to invent a successful gas operated automatic pistol. He failed. John Browning himself stated he would never market a weapon that was not able to be made reliable and twice as safe as need be because if anything could go wrong with a weapon (concerning saftey) it probably would. The worlds arms engineers should have read his biography. If they had they would not have even bothered to try and perfect a gas operated automatic. The gas guns have never had the longevity or reliablity as the Browning short recoil system.
In conculsion I will say only that the squeeze cockers have great potential accuracy, very good workmanship, are expensive and therefore have great snob appeal and will have ever increasing value because they will eventually disappear from the market place because of there expense and their safety and reailabilty problems. W.R.
John Browning was the worlds most famous and prolific arms inventor (180 pantents). He tried not once but several times to invent a successful gas operated automatic pistol. He failed. John Browning himself stated he would never market a weapon that was not able to be made reliable and twice as safe as need be because if anything could go wrong with a weapon (concerning saftey) it probably would. The worlds arms engineers should have read his biography. If they had they would not have even bothered to try and perfect a gas operated automatic. The gas guns have never had the longevity or reliablity as the Browning short recoil system.
In conculsion I will say only that the squeeze cockers have great potential accuracy, very good workmanship, are expensive and therefore have great snob appeal and will have ever increasing value because they will eventually disappear from the market place because of there expense and their safety and reailabilty problems. W.R.
Wild Romanian
Moderator
Post script on HK squeeze cockers: If you are planning on reloading for any of these weapons be careful of which powder you choose to reload with. These weapons are not as reliable as the standard short recoil operated weapons. Do not use a fast buring powder such as bullseye. It will prematurely open the slide often before the bullet has left the barrel. I personally experienced premature slide opening when using this powder. This resulted in tremedous recoil and naturally did not due the pistol any good. This pistol (like other german pistols like the luger) was designed to work only with specific types of ammuntion. Using a powder or ammunition of the wrong type will either result in an unreliable or unsafe weapon or both. W.R.
don't shoot it's me
New member
If carrying a P7 makes me a snob, then I lift my martini glass and look condescendingly at the throngs of gunners with lesser weapons. A toast to HK as I sip confidently knowing I have one of the most compact, reliable, fast shooting, accurate 9mms made.
Mike P. Wagner
New member
I'm curious. I thought that if the slide opened before the bullet let the barrel, stiff recoil would be the least of your worries. Wouldn't that cause a KABOOM? I don't understand how the slide opening prematurely would cause a "tremendous recoil".
Just curious,
Mike P. Wagner
Wild Romanian
Moderator
To mike: If you disbelieve what I have experienced then as they say seeing is believing. Try 4.4 grains of Bullseye or even hotter and then pull the trigger. You will excuse the pun but you will get one hell of a kick out of the incident. By the same token the Browning high power will eat these super hot loads up without so much as a burp. But the High Power was designed by Browning therefore it works and is twice as safe as need be. You sure cannot say that of the Hk gas pistol. The pistol if kept clean (the troublesome gas system) and fed the right ammo it is ok for limited use. Many people love them.
When I critique a pistol it is not an assault on you or anyone else personnally. I simply report the problems that I have experienced with them. Any weapon can be critizied. And no weapon is perfect. Even true classics like the High Power and the l911. Does it bother me when some points out the problems he finds with it or his personnal disatifaction with it. Of course not. Everyone has there own personal likes and dislikes but that does not change the mechanical short comings of a particlular design. Wishing they would go away just does not work. Taking a good hard look at the plus and minus points of a pistols design only makes good sense before you put down your hard earned cash for one of them. By reading these threads people who have not yet purchased one will be aware of any advatages or disadvatages of a particular design before they make their purchase. Here on the internet we are not all prostitutes working for the gun magazines. There is more useful information found here than in 1,000 gun magazine. W.R.
When I critique a pistol it is not an assault on you or anyone else personnally. I simply report the problems that I have experienced with them. Any weapon can be critizied. And no weapon is perfect. Even true classics like the High Power and the l911. Does it bother me when some points out the problems he finds with it or his personnal disatifaction with it. Of course not. Everyone has there own personal likes and dislikes but that does not change the mechanical short comings of a particlular design. Wishing they would go away just does not work. Taking a good hard look at the plus and minus points of a pistols design only makes good sense before you put down your hard earned cash for one of them. By reading these threads people who have not yet purchased one will be aware of any advatages or disadvatages of a particular design before they make their purchase. Here on the internet we are not all prostitutes working for the gun magazines. There is more useful information found here than in 1,000 gun magazine. W.R.
I have to agree that the P7 is one the best, if not "the" best pistols I've ever used. Operating the squeeze cocker is not exactly rocket science (not trying to slam anyone). SIGs, 1911s, P99s, Glocks, etc. operate differently from each other. Why is it a surprise that the HK does as well?