Guns in cockpits

[CMichael]

I kept forgetting to post this.

After the psycho charged the El Al cockpit, there was a special on El Al security.

El Al pilots all come from the Israeli Air Force. They all have specialized training in hand to hand combat and weaponery. Despite this they don't carry guns in the cockpit.

The job of the pilot is to fly the plane it is the job of the security folks to deal with terrorists.

Michael

 

[Fly320s]

Who employs the El Al security people? Are they paid by El Al or the Israeli government or some combination?

El Al has a much smaller flight schedule than the US airlines that makes it easier to put armed security on every flight.

I think one of the reasons that the armed pilots bill was passed is the cost of FAMs will be outrageous. With armed pilots, costs are much lower regardless of who pays the tab.

All of the above ties into the idea that I believe each airline should be responsible for it's own security. The government already regulates aviation, but I think that security should be left to the individual company.

 

[answerguy]

American pilots should have the right to carry. Yes, air marshals on every flight would be preferable, but that won't be happening for awhile.

 

[CMichael]

El Al is owned by the Israeli government.

I think the job of the pilots is to fly the plane not to deal with terrorists. Air marshals are the ones who should deal with terrorists.

Michael

 

[answerguy]

"I think the job of the pilots is to fly the plane not to deal with terrorists. Air marshals are the ones who should deal with terrorists."

It's a reality that there will not be enough air marshals to cover all flights for quite some time. Why not arm pilots in the mean time?

 

[pax]

I think the job of the pilots is to fly the plane not to deal with terrorists. Air marshals are the ones who should deal with terrorists.

CMichael,

You're assuming there is an Air Marshal on the flight. That's not a great assumption, since there aren't anywhere near enough AMs to cover even a quarter of all the flights in this country.

If a terrorist smashes his way into the cockpit, is the pilot supposed to serenely keep flying the plane, secure in the knowledge that an AM on some other flight will deal with the terrorist? I don't think so...

Even if there is an AM on the flight, these people are not god-like. They are ordinary human beings who have been trained to respond to such crises and who are genuinely good shots; however, they are defeatable.

If a terrorist gets past the AM and smashes his way into the cockpit, is the pilot supposed to serenely keep flying the plane, secure in the knowledge that it's the AM's job to deal with the situation, not his? I don't think so...

You know, it's the pilot's job to fly the plane, not put out fires -- but every flight deck still has a fire extinguisher on it. When the fire extinguishers were put there, no one had a hangup about giving pilots the tools to deal with a foreseeable emergency.

This is no different. Terrorist activity is a foreseeable emergency, and we should give pilots the tools they need in order to deal with it if it happens.

pax

People who object to weapons aren't abolishing violence, they're begging for rule by brute force... -- L. Neil Smith

 

[answerguy]

Pax,
I don't see how anyone could argue with you.

Here are the possiblities:

Pilot(unarmed) & no air marshall = defenseless
Pilot(armed) & no air marshall = better
Pilot(unarmed) & air marshal = preferable if there wasn't
one more choice
Pilot(armed) & air marshal = best choice

There is one more option: if terrorists take over a plane again we could just have the military shoot it down.

 

[labgrade]

The "just let the government handle it" approach is beyond my comprehension.

Sure, we'd all want the pilots to "just fly the plane," but if/when a terrorist does get in the cabin - what then?

I'd just as soon the cops take care of all crime. Thing is, that can't happen - what then? You just gonna sit back & dial 911?

Same thing in the air except 911 is an F16 with air-to-air mounted on its wings.

I'm no pilot, but other than take off & landing, aren't the major A/Cs pretty on auto pilot anyway? If I've got it right, the flight crew's pretty much monitoring instruments.

Although a nasty distraction, it's not like the plane's gonna drop out of the sky if one needs to turn 'n shoot.

 

[Covert Mission]

CMichael:

Every El Al flight has at least 1, and often 2 air marchals on the plane. EVERY flight. that is why the pilots don't need to be armed. Given that probably less than 20% of US flights have marshals, armed pilots aren't a bad idea. fwiw

 

[CMichael]

I think the problem with a gun being in the cockpit is that if I were a terrorist I would know exactly where to get a gun -- the cockpit.

If one or two of the passengers air marshalls I think it's much harder to find a gun.

Look, in El Al all the pilots have extensive experience in hand to hand combat and weaponery and they don't carry guns.

I think there should be an air marshal (s) on each flight.

Pilots need to fly planes not wrestle with terrorists.

Michael

 

[labgrade]

(Sigh)

If a perp gets in the cabin, it'll be a fur-ball. "No guns," you say, but "hand-to-hand?"

What's the daily number of USA flights? ~35,000 or so? You gotta figure to cover that, you'd need at least twice that number of FAM - days off, sick, vacation, etc. & that's for just one FAM each flight.

Won't happen. So, & even if it did, in the meantime, wouldn't you think that it just might be a good idea to have a n emergency piece of equipment to deal with the worse case scenario?

& even if this common sense doesn't get through to you, why is it any one of us should be disarmed by the hgovernment?

Don't we all have the "inalieanable right" to self defense? Why should anyone give that up because they're driving their own personal car, a bus, a plane?

 

[Tamara]

CMichael,

if I were a terrorist I would know exactly where to get a gun

That sounds like a good place to get a bullet, not a gun.

I see you mentioned in another thread that some synagogues have members who act as armed security during times of tension. Isn't that silly? Then the terrorists won't need to bring their own; they can just take them from the members... Maybe women shouldn't keep guns in their homes. If they do, rapists won't need to bring guns since they know they can just get one there...

Pilots need to fly planes not wrestle with terrorists.

Note the screen name of Mr. Fly320s. You reckon he might know a bit about what goes on in the cockpit? He seems to be cool with guns in the cockpit.

Here's an idea: how about the PIC hands over the controls to the guy in the right seat (who doesn't have much to do anyway ), zaps Achmed, and goes back to flying the plane. That cool with you?

 

[answerguy]

"I think there should be an air marshal (s) on each flight."

Me too. The only problem is there is a long lag time from
when you say 'do it' to the time they are trained and in the air. What happens in the mean time? Defensless airplanes.
Or do we just go to down to the unemployment office and grab the first 10,000 people in line.

"Would you like fries with that? I mean drop your knife, I'm an Air Marshal."

 

[shermacman]

Logistically there is a problem with a Marshal shooting at a Bad Guy: his line of fire is towards the cockpit, through the cables and hydraulics and controls. If an errant bullet misses the Bad Guy and misses the pilot it goes through the windscreen (bad) or through the control panels (also bad). Of course if it hits the pilot that could also be bad, in my opinion...

Arm the pilots.

 

[CMichael]

Tamara my point in the other folder is that it would be more dangerous if members of a congregation were armed and the assailant didn't know who they are. I think that is more useful than the Rabbi begin armed and the assailant knowing that.

The logical thing for an assailant to do in that case would be to shoot the rabbi first. If random members of the congregation were armed the assailant wouldn't know who to shoot first.

This is similar to airplanes. If the assailant knew that the pilot was armed guess who would be the first person the assailant would try to take out and where the assailant would go to get a gun?

Just for argument sake let's say that there were armed marshals on every flight. If El Al which is renowned for its security doesn't have armed pilots, whose pilots have vastly more experience in combat than American pilots, and who instead use armed security personnel aboard airplanes what does that indicate that America should do regarding who to arm?

Israeli air force pilots have perhaps the most extensive combat training.

Michael

 

[CMichael]

Shermac I would imagine special bullets would be used that wouldn't penetrate that far.

Also, I would imagine the security personnel would be next to the cockpit.

Michael

 

[shermacman]

Nope. No special bullets, jacketed hollow point .38's or 9mm are on the approved list. I assume that you are referring to the Liberal Lie about a bullet penetrating the skin and the plane rapidly depressuring and going boom. Won't happen. A 737 ventilates with compressed air from the turbines, runs through the cabin and out a vent that measure 144 square inches right into the wild blue yonder. In other words every jet already has a huge hole in it, deliberately. A .38 bullet hole makes a .05 square inch hole. Think also about the reaction of the passengers if a plain clothed guy goes running up the aisle with a gun in his hand. I for one would get involved, violently.

 

[C.R.Sam]

I say...Don't arm the pilots.
Let the pilots who wish, arm themselves.
Enough government meddling.

When few cared whether pilots were armed or not, there were very few SUCCESSFUL hijackings and suicides by airplane.

And a pretty good number of the flight crew were armed.

Sam. ATP

 

[Grinch]

Gang,

Go to this link for the latest on the Federal Flight Deck Officer program-

Airline Pilots Security Alliance

Your estimates for FAM coverage are off by a factor of ten. It is far less than 20% of flights.

The FFDO program is voluntary, will require stringent training and proficiency with specific jurisdiction. Pilots that can't hack it will not be armed. This is not going to be airborne CHL.

El Al's situation and tactics are far different than what is usually presented in the media. You analogy is not relavent to the situation here in the US, from cockpit security, to armed guards to pre boarding security procedures.

Read the program on the website, much thought and expertise has been tapped in its development.

Grinch

 

[Fred Hansen]

The job of the pilot is to fly the plane it is the job of the security folks to deal with terrorists.

Tell that to the 4 9/11/01 crews.

:barf: :barf: