Gun-mounted flashlight blamed in fatal shooting

[Cruncher Block]

It seems you are advocating the use of a weapon mounted light in conjunction with a separate, handheld light. I could see that.

Definitely. If you are in the dark, you need a flashlight. If using the flashlight requires violating gun safety rules, you need another flashlight that doesn't have a gun attached to it.

Heck, I even suggest a second handheld flashlight (like an E1E) for when flashlight #1 burns out or gets dropped.

 

[brickeyee]

Interesting. I can't believe that we let the hand with the trigger finger grip the gun at all. After all, gripping the gun requires finger pressure from the hand holding the lethal weapon, so it would appear then that the current grip instructed from firearm manufacturers to gun schools to police departments is a poorly conceived thing as well.

How many hundreds of years have we been doing it wrong?

I can only assume you are being dense on purpose.

When you grip the gun you are not moving your fingers around, except to pull the trigger.

Moving other fingers around for a task like turning on a light is asking for the trigger finger to move sympathetically.

 

[pax]

Hm. I see from several posts on this thread that a lot of people don't understand how those pressure switches work.

Here's the important factor: if a light is actuated by a pressure switch, you don't move other fingers around to light it. You simply tighten your grip to turn the light on, loosen it to turn the light off. It's a fast and intuitive system that provides absolutely no possibility of moving your trigger finger a full inch from where it's safely indexed on the frame. It's also far (far!) safer than a flip switch in a similar location, because it requires no real movement of any fingers, trigger or otherwise. Simply a tightening and loosening of one's grip.

On the other hand, if your trigger finger is stupidly resting on the trigger while the firearm is pointed at something or someone you're not willing to shoot, a sneeze could fire the gun for you. So could a cough, getting startled, tripping, a sudden noise, or someone bumping into you. And, of course, tightening your overall grip while your finger is resting on the trigger could become noisy, too.

Knowing these basic facts means we know the problem isn't the pressure switch or its location. It's either

a) the shooter didn't know how to use a pressure switch and tried to use it like a flip switch,

or

b) the shooter thought he was doing such an important job that the safety rules didn't apply to him.

In both cases the solution is training. (Well, and in the second case maybe a dose of humility.)

pax

 

[Erik]

"I see from several posts on this thread that a lot of people don't understand how those pressure switches work."

Agreed. And as an aside, quite a few folks don't seem to understand how the the rocker switches work, either.

---
He likely had no idea he was committing a Rule 3 violation. And then he squeezed. Guess what? If he were running his old light, the result would have likely been the same. But since his light and means of actuating it were new to him, that HAD to be it, right? Wrong.

 

[Jt1971]

Now that I think of it, either squeezing the grip or flipping a rocker switch is a different action then pulling the trigger. Somehow I think the guy that made the shot should come up with a better excuse. Even with my eyes closed I can tell the difference.

 

[cougar gt-e]

The officer claims he meant to activate his gun-mounted flashlight and pulled the trigger instead.

100% understand how this could happen. Once had a laser with the pressure switch pad deal and the curly cord (remember them?). One of the first times shooting with it, I went to turn the laser on and the dang gun fired! Scared me, but following the rules, the gun was pointed at the targets at the time. Whew!

That made me think long and hard about accessories. The action of squeezing the pressure pad with a middle finger was too close to the action of squeezing the trigger and the trigger finger "went along for the ride". I honestly didn't remember moving the trigger finger at all. Weird, but important lesson learned. A gizmo like that takes more dedicated training or possibly un-training than I was willing to put in. (It went bye-bye) When the adrenaline starts pumping the last thing I need is to have to think about silly gizmos!

 

[hey.moe]

I'm new to the forum and really impressed by the outstanding discussion of a particularly thorny subject.

It seems to me that barring a malfunction of the equipment itself a ND is always ultimately the responsibility of the shooter, whether the proximate cause is violation of safety rules, use of equipment with known design deficiencies, or use of equipment with inadequate training.

However, having said that, equipment which is designed to take advantage of human factors and natural tendencies is almost always preferable to equipment which requires training to overcome them.

-Stan-

 

[silvercorvette]

I didn't read all the comments but I will after I post this and see if I agree with what others already said.

I have always been against gun mounted lights for a few reasons and one is it violates the rule of not pointing a gun at anything you don't intend to destroy. although it does increase the risk of someone getting shot by accident, there is still no excuse for poor trigger discipline and in the shooting that was mentioned it was entirely operator error and not equipment failure so the blame lies entirely with the shooter

 

[WW2]

Take another look

I finally got the picture uploaded. Take a close look and you can see that pressing the activation button on the gun mounted light could EASILY lead you to pressing the trigger accidentally! Note that there is an activation switch on each side of the light, and it begs you to press the activation switch with your trigger finger! This is the type of design that lawyers love to attack!

This is a very bad and dangerous design!

 

[Erik]

Uh... Check the first page, where the unit with the pressure switch is shown.

Your picture, the unit without the pressure switch attached, is activated via rocker switches. Different concerns. Same solution, though: training. And, no, it is not a "very bad and dangerous design;" either one of them.

 

[silvercorvette]

the activation button on the gun mounted light could EASILY lead you to pressing the trigger accidentally!

It does not matter, the cop can't blame the light for the reason he messed up.
At the very least the cop should have had the light turned on before he pointed it. Point the gun in a safe direction before you turn on the light.

I don't like lights mounted on guns, and I would have used a hand held light, if the cop did not feel confident to use the light he should have gotten a hand held light
=========================
It is his job to become familiar with his equiptment

 

[MLeake]

Read the article again...

... the department in question switched from the X200 light, which had the activation switch as depicted in WW2's picture, to the X300, with the optional button below the trigger guard, same position as for a CrimsonTrace laser switch.

From the SureFire website http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main.pl?pgm=co_disp&func=displ&strfnbr=6&prrfnbr=24462&sesent=0,0&search_id=2409228:

Optional pistol grip switches permit operation with the top grip finger, leaving the index finger free to operate the handgun trigger. Other switches are available for operating the X300 when attached to a long gun.

This type of switch is activated by squeezing the middle finger of the shooting hand; on my 442, the CT switch often comes on as soon as I begin firing, requiring very little extra pressure - the extra pressure I subconsciously apply for recoil control is all it takes. Not sure how much pressure the SureFire button takes.

 

[silvercorvette]

It does not matter where the switch is, everyone (cops and non-cops) are responsible for every round fired from there gun. Cops should be held to a higher standard and then this mess would have never happened if
1) he became familiar with his equipment
2) had the light/gun pointed in a safe direction when he turned it on, in this case it happened in a parking lot, but if he was entering a building it should have been turned in before he went in. I don't know if he could have turned it on before exiting the car or entering the lot but there is no reason he couldn't have had the gun pointed in a safe direction before he started futzing around with the switch
3) spent some money on a good hand held light

 

[MLeake]

Preaching to the choir, SilverCorvette. I have never been a fan of lights on handguns.

But anybody who wants to use one should take great pains to train to use it safely.

WRT switch positions, my CT laser switches are in the same spot. Attempts to use the lasers have never caused me to sympathetically pull the trigger.

 

[Erik]

And what of both? Pressure switches to activate the laser and the rockers to activate the light? Its amazing users with those configurations even survive the loading process. But then again, it isn't that complicated so long as folks train to competency, let alone higher levels of proficiency.

 

[MLeake]

It isn't about the switches (although the shooter in the article disagrees). I only brought up switches because people mention rockers, and those weren't involved in the OP incident.

It is about training to an extent, and keeping one's cool to an extent. But it is also about (IMO) the foolishness of using a weapon mounted light for primary identification equipment.

 

[Erik]

I wasn't aiming that at you, so much as asking a rhetorical question for the "these don't belong" crowd. Sorry if it came across like a dig - it wasn't. Best - E

 

[BILLtheDJguy]

I think we need a few of these given to local law enforcement...Thin out a few of our dealers....lol

The point is, he had his weapon already drawn. They were making an arrest.
He didn't pull it out to use the light. He had the perp at gunpoint. Probably couldn't see his hands, well, or was giving another UC a better view.

Bottom line - FINGER OFF OF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOU ARE READY TO FIRE.

And for the record, the Surefire is a phenomenal light AND system and there is NOTHING wrong with the design. On the contrary, if you use your TRIGGER FINGER, to operate the light, HOW CAN YOU SHOOT SOMEONE, ACCIDENTLY?

 

[silvercorvette]

Every time a bullet leaves the barrel the shooter is always responsible. There are a few reasons I don't like gun mounted lights and in addition to the reason I already mentioned the main reason is that when I became a cop in 1970 (they didn't have all those fancy gadgets back then) we were trained to hold our light in our weak hand at arms length away from our body because if anyone was aiming for the light hopping to hit you the shot would be off by an arms length. That light makes a good place to aim your shots.

 

[MLeake]

silvercorvette...

... I've never been thrilled with giving them the light to shoot at, either.

BilltheDJGuy, the light involved was not operated by the trigger finger, but by the middle finger, below the trigger guard. So.... your point doesn't apply.

The main thing is, his finger should not have been on the trigger, if he didn't perceive a direct threat. The possibility of a threat may justify the draw, and in some cases (arrests being one) the aim; but his finger shouldn't have been on the trigger at that point.