Grinding the bottom of die or top of shell holder

tangolima

New member
My rifle has short chamber. Some said it is a good problem, as it won't have excessive headspace for a while. It is a problem nonetheless. I have lowered the sizing die way down, so much so that the top of the shell holder pushes on the bottom of the die when the ram is at its top dead center during sizing, yet I couldn't quite chamber the sized brass.

I ground away top of the shell holder, so that the brass can be sized a bit shorter. It worked, but the shell holder is unavoidably weakened. It has been working fine till last night. I was a bit too stingy on the sizing lube when I was sizing a brass. It stuck and both its rim and the shell holder's claw got torn apart.

I got the stuck brass out. Got a new shell holder on order. But I'm sure I should grind the holder's top off anymore. How about grinding the bottom of the die? I am reluctant as it is way more expensive if I screw up.

Comments? Thanks in advance.

-TL
 

Gunplummer

New member
I know plenty of people that have done it. You can always set up with a feeler gage when you go back to standard length brass.
 

4runnerman

New member
Are we sure it's a short chamber or a tight chamber?. 2 different problems, 2 different fixes. Does it chamber a factory load?.
 

hartcreek

Moderator
Not a problem to grind off the bottom of the die which is what you should have done in the first place NOT the shell holder. Measure the did with you micrometer and then get to grinding but grind the bottom in .01 incriments so it makes the math and using feeler gages easier.
 

F. Guffey

New member
I got the stuck brass out. Got a new shell holder on order. But I'm sure I should grind the holder's top off anymore. How about grinding the bottom of the die? I am reluctant as it is way more expensive if I screw up.

Tagolima, a reloader can size a case for any chamber that is shorter than a go-gage length chamber. A reloader can form/size a case that is longer than a field reject length chamber. And now; the difficult part, convincing them they can do it. So, it can be done but not by a reloader or the choir.

I size cases for all chambers. I size cases for chambers that are .012” shorter than a go-gage length chamber. I form cases for long chambers. I size cases for a 30/06 chamber that is .002” longer than a field reject length chamber. For those that can keep up that is .11” longer than a go-gage length chamber. I do not grind the bottom of the die; I do not grind the top of the shell holder.

Difference; between what I do and everyone else does? I measure the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face first to determine the length of the chamber in thousandths. And; there are at least three different ways to accomplish that, again the problem is convincing a reloader it can be done.

It reminds me of Jimmy Dean explain to friends why the chicken crossed the road. Of course no one knew. He said the chicken crossed the road to show the opossum it could be done.

Then I determine the die and shell holder’s ability to return the case to minimum length or as ‘they’ say; full length size. If some misinformed reloader has ground the die and or shell holder all bets are out the window. I know, some of this stuff causes reloaders to break out in a sweat; it is not necessary.

As I have said I am the fan of transfers and standards. If I do not have a standard I make one. The head space gage is both a standard and a transfer. To check the ability of a shell holder and die to return the case to minimum length the reloader must have the ability to measure the distance from the shoulder of the die to the deck of the shell holder. For me it is easy, I do not have variables, I do not have spring back. Variables and spring back are excuses for not being able to do ‘it’. All I have to do is remove the primer punch/neck sizer plug assembles from the die then place a head space gage into the die with the shell holder. After getting the three pieces together I measure the gap between the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder with a feeler gage. In the perfect world the gap should be .005” for a 30/06 head space gage. If the gap is less than .005” the die and or shell holder could be considered suspect. To eliminate the shell holder as being suspect measure the deck height. The deck height should be .125”. to check the accuracy of the head space gage learn to measure the length of a head space gage with a datum. I use datums that are not case friendly. Case friendly datums work when the reloader learns to measure before and again after and understand they are using a comparator, not a head space gage. Again, my cases do not have head space, I use the length of the case from the shoulder to the head of the case to off set the length of the chamber.

F. Guffey
 

F. Guffey

New member
I do not know what press, die and shell holder your are using. I do not know if your press has the ability to overcome the cases ability to resist sizing. I do not know if you know how to determine if the case was sized before you lowered the ram.

Back to the die, shell holder and presses ability to size the case. In the big inning you adjusted to die to the shell holder, or you adjusted the die an additional fractional turn of the die below contact. I do not know but if you adjusted the die an additional ½ turn after contact before sizing the case there should not be a gap between the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder when the ram is raised. I have no problem measuring the gap between the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder. ‘REMEMBER’; the gap was .005” when a go gage was used to determine if the die and shell holder had the ability to full length sized the case.

It is possible the case is whipping the press because the case could have more resistance to sizing than the press can overcome. Then there is lube. Grinding the top of the shell holder and or bottom of the die can increase the presses ability to overcome the cases ability to resist sizing.

I can use a feeler gage to size cases for short chambers. I size cases for short chambers when I ream a chamber. I always what to know where I am and how far I have to go to finish. I use the feeler gage between the case head and deck of the shell holder to raise the case off of the deck of the shell holder. It could be said using the feeler gage is the same thing as grinding the top of the shell holder to reduce deck height. Anyhow, If I was going to grind the top pf the shell holder or bottom of a die I would know how much stock to remove measured in thousands. I have three machines that are in-line, angle and butt grinders; the perfect tool for making head space gages, pilots and shorter shell holders and shorter dies.

F. Guffey
 

Nitescout

New member
Mr Guffey,

You`re making my head hurt!!! Most reloaders don`t have the equipment to measure and/or resize to a short chamber....

If the die will not size a case short enough to chamber, and the shell holder is up against the die, How does adding a feeler gage make it chamber any better???

RCBS makes a barrel type mic that you can measure headspace of a case fired in your rifle`s chamber...It will also measure your reloaded round or factory round and you can see exactly what`s going on,

In the past 42 or 43 years, I`ve had tight / short chamber on 2 rifles...I have 2 dedicated shell holders for those 2 guns...shell holders are cheaper than dies.

Yes, I still respect you, you have a lot of knowledge, and you usually are very helpful...I just wanted to keep this remedy simple.
 

F. Guffey

New member
You’re making my head hurt!!! Most reloaders don’t have the equipment to measure and/or resize to a short chamber....

Nitecourt, you are most kind, if I can help you in anyway let me know.

It is not about the ones that do not have the equipment to measure etc.. It has to do with the ones that tell me it can not be done.

Then there was Jimmy Dean, he ask the question:

Why did the chicken cross the road?

No one knew so he answered his question: He said;

The Chicken cross the road to show the opossum it could be done.

I size cases for short chambers with a feeler gage. I raise the case head off of the deck of the shell holder by placing the gage between the deck of the shell holder and case head.

All reloaders have dial calipers; the dial caliper is a height gage. When measuring the length of a case for its effect on offsetting the length of the chamber it is possible to measure the length of the case from the shoulder/datum to the case head. The only thing left to be decided is the hole. To determine the diameter of the hole check SAAMI, or if the tools is going to be used as a comparator measure before and again after.

F. Guffey
 

briandg

New member
Maybe the answer would have been to find tighter dies. RCBS makes the small base dies. The problem I see is that now the dies are damaged, and maybe dangerous if they make their way into circulation of people who don't know that they have been customized.
 

4runnerman

New member
i am with briandg here for the time being. Someone told him is was a short chamber?. We are all just jummping on the band wagon with that as a fact. Is it a true statement. Is is a short chamber or is it a tight chamber. Still waiting for the answer-Does it chamber factory ammo?. Until we know the answer to that all is just hearsay.

To the OP-- Does it chamber factory ammo?. If yes-You do NOT have a short chamber you have a tight chamber- Grinding your die down will ot fix that problem.
 
Tangolima,

Does new commercial ammo fit the chamber? That's a critical question. Most new ammo I see has the case shoulders about 0.002" shorter than a SAAMI minimum chamber. If it fits, your chamber may be tight, but it's not really too tight.

Let's take advantage Mr. Guffey's method and a comparator, if you have one. If you don't, look at the improvised one in the photo below. It is for 308 Winchester, but you can certainly alter the spacer choice for your chambering. Just pick something that will contact the case shoulder in about the middle between the neck and case body. Since this is a comparator, not an absolute measuring tool, we don't care that you have something that matches the proper datum diameter exactly, as long as it repeats from one case to the next. We just want to determine shorter or longer.

What you want to do is measure the case head-to-shoulder length this way, zero the caliper, then resize the case and see if it grows (plus number) or shrinks (minus number). If it shrinks, it should be fitting in the gun and something else is wrong. In that instance, check that the case didn't get fatter. It shouldn't do that unless the die is out of spec, but you can check to be sure, anyway.

Assuming the case grows, the sizing die has narrowed the case, but failed to set the shoulder back adequately. Do check that you have a slightly compressed fit at the shell holder deck when the ram is fully up and pushing the case into the die. No crack of light should be visible between the die and shell holder deck when you put a well-illuminated white page of paper behind it and look at it sideways. But assuming you have that right, note much the comparator says the length from the head to the shoulder has grown. Remove the decapping and expanding rod from the die. Now take a second case (don't reuse the same one or you will get a false reading) and insert it into the shell holder, but this time slipping a feeler gauge between the case head and the bottom of its slot that is equal to the extra length you measured, plus one thousandth more. Repeat the experiment. Keep repeating until you find the gauge thickness that causes cases to come out of the die –0.001" shorter at the shoulder than they were when they went in (on average). That should be a very good accuracy length. Add another thousandth to come out –0.002" below the comparator length if the rifle is a self-loader. That final shim thickness is how much you would want to grind off the mouth of the die.

Most of the major die makers will grind and re-radius the die mouth to your specification for a fee, but you can do it yourself if you feel competent to do the job without getting the mouth out of square. Just keep in mind that you can also keep using the feeler gauges, so this is treating yourself to a greater convenience.

Personally, I would use a Lee die for this if one is available in your chambering. Not only are they honed very perfectly round, but they are less expensive to replace if you make a mistake doing it yourself. The finished ground die would then be only for this rifle until you shoot out the barrel and replace it, at which time you can get a normal length chamber or the same length in your next barrel, as you prefer. The chamber you have can also be cut longer if you want to do that now.

Customizing dies in this way is not unusual. Board member Hummer70 says, IIRC, he has something like 150-odd sizing dies, most of which duplicate a caliber, but which are ground to slightly different lengths or, I expect, honed to different neck diameters and that he has needed at one time or another for his various barrels in that chambering.

When you go to make the measurements, if the length of a case coming out of the sizing die is not more than a couple of thousandths longer than a fireformed case, resize it again, this time letting the case stay in the die at the top of the stroke for a count of five to let it relax. Withdraw it and rotate it 180°, and repeat. That may shorten it as much further as you need, assuming you are willing to spend the extra time. The additional shortening is the reason I recommended using fresh cases for determining how much shorter the die needs to be.

If your press is being overcome by the sizing force, you will see that crack of light and should be able to keep turning the die in, a little at a time (like a tenth of a turn at a time) until it disappears. If, for example, you follow die instructions for an iron press made by Lyman or RCBS or Redding, but are using a cast aluminum frame Lee press, since aluminum has a lower modulus of elasticity, you should expect the press to stretch more and the die to need to be turned in further. Follow Lee's instructions (available from their site) instead of the ones that came with the die, or else nudge it in as I described.

poormancomparator_zps061e19f7.jpg
 

briandg

New member
The thing that REALLY disturbs me is that any significant level of shortening that did will result in the case shoulder being set back that much as well.

If the shoulder is pushed back an extra .05 or so every loading, how long will it be before those cases rupture at the base?

The op said that he cut off a shell holder, and cut off so much that a brass cartridge tore the shoulder apart.
 

Elkins45

New member
The thing that REALLY disturbs me is that any significant level of shortening that did will result in the case shoulder being set back that much as well.

If the shoulder is pushed back an extra .05 or so every loading, how long will it be before those cases rupture at the base?

It wouldn't be set back every time. It would be set back only the first time to fit the short chamber and wouldn't be able to expand that far again.

I do think the question about factory ammo is a good one.
 

Nitescout

New member
Yes, it would be helpful to know if factory ammo will chamber...That being said, I have checked many factory loaded rounds...mostly 308 win. and I was surprised to find almost all factory loads are .005 to .020 undersize.
I don`t think any manufacturer wants to be bothered with complaints from unknowing shooters that their ammo won`t chamber in their new rifle...

Checking your new ammo, or reloads is really easy with the RCBS Precision Mic.

You get to see the difference when the press flexes and doesn`t. F,Guffey mentions this quite frequently...when the press gets whipped by the case.

I use 2 Rockchucker II presses when I load for the M1A. one for sizing, one for seating. I was surprised to find Its difficult to get cases sized within .005 of each other, when running a batch of LC MATCH. I usually run them all back through a second time.

Keep in mind, the RCII is a cast iron "O" press with the larger 1" diameter ram...It shouldn`t flex at all.

I also lube all cases with my thumb and forefinger, and RCBS case lube...I`ve tried the fancy spray can lube...but I get too many stuck cases...

Finally, I might mention, I am in no way connected with RCBS. I like a lot of their products, but I still like the old Pacific Dura Chrome dies.
 

Clark

New member
I have ground the bottom of a lot of Lee Carbide 45acp dies with diamond, and then they crack.

I have ground the top off a lot a 45acp shell holders, and then they break and will not extract the case from the die.

I hope you have better luck.
 

Gunplummer

New member
I have ground pounds of carbide and made a lot of braze tools. The carbide retains it's properties. There is something else going on there if your carbide dies crack after grinding. There is nothing wrong with grinding the bottom of a common tapered rifle die, but I would not walk over to a pedestal grinder to do it. Maybe the die is long, I don't know I am not there. If it does not work, so what? That is called learning. Education is expensive. It certainly will not "Create a dangerous situation". If you get carried away and grind too much, the die will get stuck when it starts to swage the head. Did some of that when forming cases from other brass. All that said, check the bore with a flashlight before this adventure begins.
 

Road_Clam

New member
I had to "massage" my rcbs 308 setup as I could not quite get the shoulder pushed back enough to establish a .002 headspace without needing excessive overcam on my rock chucker press. For some reason my resized shoulders were +.004" for my R700's chamber. You have two possible choices , grind the bottom of the die or grind the top of the shell holder. I chose to grind and Emery cloth the shell holder. IMO why risk irreversibly modifying an expensive $25 die when you can irreversibly modify a $7 shell holder? I ended up only having to remove about .004 off the sh. I am fortunate enough to have a Larry Willis digital headspace Gage to help fine tune my casings.
 

Snyper

New member
IMO why risk irreversibly modifying an expensive $25 die when you can irreversibly modify a $7 shell holder?
That was answered in the first post when he described ripping the top off the shellholder.

If it won't chamber factory ammo, I'd stop worrying about making a die work
 
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