GREAT quote on "stopping power".

[JohnKSa]

This is a quote from an article by Dave Spaulding in the Feb/Mar 07 issue of HANDGUNS. It is made even more accurate by the editing error.

Let's face it: Handguns, regardless of caliber, are not very effective regardless of caliber. Incapacitation is a direct result of where your hits are delivered and how many hits can be delivered.​

Maybe he MEANT to include "regardless of caliber" twice... Even so, I think many will read the statement and "miss" that it's in there at all.

 

[Dwight55]

Johnny Cash once mused that love made the world go round, . . . but money greased the wheels.

In shooting, I think it is fair to say that accuracy makes the shooting world go round, . . . but caliber (size) indeed greases the wheels here too.

Think about being gut shot by a .22, . . . hurts, . . . unh, hunh!!!! Probably will live through it with a bit of medical attention.

Think about being gut shot by a 10 gauge slug, . . . hurts, . . . unh, hunh, . . . and besides that, . . . you are probably gonna die, . . . for shure, . . . with or without a but of medical attention.

Shot placement is indeed important, . . . but it isn't the only game in town.

May God bless,
Dwight

 

[FM12]

JohnKSa: maybe he's from the department of redundancy department!

 

[cheygriz]

I don't think he meant that a .22 or .25 is as effective as a 9MM or a .45.

What he meant was that NO HANDGUN can be trusted to stop an attacker BEFORE he hurts you in all instances.

And in that, I totally agree with him. Many years ago, a good friend and colleague of mine shot a perp with a Ruger .44 Magnum carbine, FOUR times, COM at point blank. 240 GR hollowpoints. All four bullets penetrated the lungs and exited the body from the back. All expanded.

I was the first responding officer after the shooting. The witnesses, and the officer, all told me, and later the detective sergeant, that AFTER the officer shot the perp, the perp reached into his pants pocket, drew a .25 ACP and shot the officer once in the abdomen before expiring. Fortunately, the officer survived.

This was a one in a million case, but things like this do happen. I wouldn't have believed myself it if I hadn't been there.

 

[JohnKSa]

...AFTER the officer shot the perp, the perp reached into his pants pocket, drew a .25 ACP and shot the officer once in the abdomen before expiring.

Short of a CNS hit, that's about what one should expect.

 

[Half-Price Assassin]

Anyone who chooses a 9mm, over a .45acp, is not using their brain. The only reason one would choose the 9mm over something bigger, is budget. I sleep next to a 9mm GLOCK 17. Why? Because of what I just said, my budget will not allow me to shoot anything larger (or more expensive). I do have the money to run out and buy a .45acp pistol (I use to own a GLOCK 21), and some JHP +P rounds, but I wouldn't have the funds to practice with it much. I can practice twice as much with my 9mm. Just go to Walmart and look at the ammo prices. For cheap range stuff 9mm is alittle over half the cost. Low Cost = More Practice. I wish I could afford to shoot more, but until i get a better paying job, the 9mm is going to be my round of choice. If i won the lotto tomorrow, I would buy a 10mm, .357sig, and .45acp pistol (all GLOCKs) I personally feel the only reason anyone would take a 9mm is cost. Anyone who says otherwise is not telling the truth. I hate to say it, but the .45 is better. Now dont think i am saying the 9mm is pushover, the 9mm especally the +P JHP rounds are very deadly. but not as good as a .40, or .45 JHP. do I personally feel undergunned with a 9mm? Heck no, but if I had the money I would love to buy an HK USP45, or GLOCK 21SF. Shot placement beats all, but bigger bullets help hit those vital spots better.

my two cents..................................

 

[JohnKSa]

Shot placement beats all, but bigger bullets help hit those vital spots better.

Maybe--but if so, the effect is not dramatic. I'm reminded of an assessment of the added lethality/effectiveness of the Black Talon rounds where the conclusion was that they MIGHT make a difference (compared to more conventional ammunition) in about 5% of shootings.

9mm/10mm/11.5mm, they're all pretty small pieces of metal. Yeah, an extra mm here or MIGHT make a difference in a small percentage of shootings, but you've properly chosen practice (and therefore shot placement) as a more important consideration.

 

[Charshooter]

The 9mm make a good choice in a small package if you can get your hand to fit them. They are easy to conceal, I guess that would be the reason I would own one, but those little guns are hard to handle if you have large hands. I do better with a revolver and 38 +P is about the same thing in some loads. Sure the 45 ACP has more effective knockdown, but it is usually larger.

 

[Smokin Joe]

placement is cool.

but if I shot you with a 6mm airsoft right at your heart, you arent gonna die. why ? the projectile wasnt going fast enough nor have enough WEIGHT to penetrate to the heart.

 

[habeuscorpse]

A 9mm bullet will not intersect a vital but a .45 will, that is a mighty small margin of error that cannont be relied upon. If you are consistently that good, a 9mm is more than adequate.

 

[croyance]

The differences in size are also before expansion. After expansion (which doesn't always happen) the better brands are even closer in size.
You better practice very good shot placement rather than hoping that the minute differences in diameter allows the bigger bullet to hit something vital.

 

[P-990]

Mindset. If you doubt yourself or your pistol for one moment, you've lost the fight. If you need to carry a .45 to get rid of that doubt, carry the .45. If the 9mm makes you happy, carry it.

Practice, accuracy, proficiency, affordability. At the end of the day, YOU have to decide whether or not what you're carrying is enough.

 

[sasquatch]

Half-Price Assassin

Anyone who chooses a 9mm, over a .45acp, is not using their brain.

"I personally feel the only reason anyone would take a 9mm is cost. Anyone who says otherwise is not telling the truth."

Many use the 9mm over something larger because it is a caliber that they can control. Most self-defense instructors will tell you to use the caliber that you can control. Most people cannot control a .45 ACP well enough for follow-up shots in a self-defense situation. Same with .40 S&W, 10mm, .357 SIG, etc.

"I hate to say it, but the .45 is better."

The .45 may be "better" for some people, but not for everyone.

 

[cheygriz]

After 15 years as a Police Firearms Instructor, I have come to the conclusion that a single hit from a .45, MIGHT have a very small avantage over a single hit from a .38 special of 9MM. A VERY SMALL advantage, but nonetheless an advantage.

If, however, you're following proper procedure, and continuing to fire until the threat is neutralized, I can guantantee you that the shooter with the 9MM will get off 5 or 6 aimed shots in the same time that a .45 shooter gets off 3 or 4. And 6 9MM slugs, properly placed, is going to help you one helluva lot more than 4 .45 slugs. This is true regardless of the skill or experience level of the shooter! The old experienced shooter that can fire 5 .45slugs in a second, accurately, will fire 8 9MMs accurately in a second.

And since rapid follow up shots are far more important than caliber in handgun rounds, the case could be made that the 9MM is actually MORE effective than the .45. Now I don't believe that, but I do believe that if proper defensive procedures are followed, the 9MM, .38 Special, .40 S&W and .45 ACP are all just about dead equal in effectiveness, assuming that the shooter is smart enough to be using quality JHP ammo.

 

[Csspecs]

I think that if given any choice in weapon to win a gunfight in my home that I would chose a fully automatic .22 over a .50 pistol. When you go to a larger round you slow your recovery time for your next shot, and you are betting your life that one or two rounds will hit something vital.

The case of the cop that shot a guy 4 times with a .44 mag and still got shot is a case where more is better, if it had been a smaller round perhaps he could have kept shooting until he got the results he need.

But in this one needs to keep in mind people like baby face Nelson, in the gun fight that he was killed in he was shot 17 times by two FBI agents yet he still killed them before he died. Some people just don't know when they are supposed to die and keep going.

 

[sasquatch]

Csspecs

"I think that if given any choice in weapon to win a gunfight in my home that I would chose a automatic .22 over a .50 pistol."

Well, maybe. However, there are many calibers between .22 and .50 which would be a much wiser choice than the .22. The 9mm parabellum would be one of those.

 

[James K]

A bit OT, but while a .22 may be less effective than a .45, I don't want anyone shooting at me with an AM180.

Jim

 

[Csspecs]

The point I was making is that quantity is better than quality as the more rounds you put out there the better as you have less riding on each round.

In the case of a pistol I would pick something like a 9mm because it is a good compromise between rounds carried, stopping power and controllability.

 

[Airborne Falcon]

Anyone who chooses a 9mm, over a .45acp, is not using their brain. The only reason one would choose the 9mm over something bigger, is budget.

Ummmmm, let's see. What about recoil/controlability? What about high capacity? What about availability? What about range of offerings of Personal Defense Loads available from just about every major manufacturer?

Me thinks you may be just a bit too obsessed with "budget," Half-Price. Pardon the pun.

Me personally, I carry 40 S&W or .357 SIG, depending upon which hand I feel like doing it with that particular day. So see, there are other choices, many other choices, than 9mm and 45 ACP.

 

[CarbineCaleb]

Yep. My fav all time info on the effect of handgun rounds is:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm
99% of all discussions completely ignore the actual target and his(her) physiology - how the machine works, and how it might be affected by bullets. This report considers these aspects. While it might not be the final word, it's certainly the most credible thing I've seen in print to date.