Glock 22 KB!

[SundownRider]

Abstract, it was a 40 S&W case.

Atblis, Clays was used because it was available, and there was data to support it. Personally, I would lean more towards Universal or a slower burning powder.

 

[HSMITH]

I have shot tens of thousands of rounds of 40 loaded with Clays, and that is not overstatement at all. It isn't the powder at fault and it absofreakingpositive-a-lutely wasn't a case failure that split the barrel. I have done the testing, in stock Glock barrels as well as in fully supported ramped barrels. I am not guessing. It was an overcharge, setback or an obstructed bore. The overcharge would have to be at least 35% more powder under worst case circumstances. Clays will without a doubt get nasty REALLY fast at a certain point, but it is WELL above current printed data. The thing with Clays is you get very little or no warning at all before things get out of hand. Get some setback and you arrive at the point where it gets nasty really quickly, and if it is not a controlled experiment you could blow up a gun easily. Obstructed bores don't care what you are shooting if your loads are capable of much more than just pushing the bullet out of the barrel, really bad things happen with obstructed bores.

 

[Abstract]

Smith's got it!

 

[HSMITH]

Thanks for the vote of confidence Abstract. It is almost funny how many people put things down or comment on a particular gun yet they have NEVER done even a LITTLE bit of the testing to find out if it is true or not. It is truly sad to have a website that is devoted to convincing people of something that isn't true where the author has not done the testing to find out if it is true either and has instead chosen to rely on anecdotal 'evidence' from others. The whole Glock KB thing is mindboggling to me really.

 

[deadmarsh]

I've seen four Glocks KaBoom, all using factory ammo and all with LEO training. Three were G22 40 S&W and one a G21. The 40 cal were using Winchester and Remington 180gr standard practice ammo -- the G21 used CorBon 185gr factory...the pictures below are from the G21 that I have in my camera -- the others are at home on the other PC...

Glock concluded the G22 were cased by ruptured cases, and the G21 seemed to have fired out-of-battery. Glock replaced the pistols with new, but took the old in exchange...

Dead

 

[Odd Job]

Thanks for showing us that, Deadmarsh. I would love to see the others too.

 

[FirstFreedom]

Hodgdon says 3.5 is max load for 180 grains:

http://www.hodgdon.com/data/pistol/40sw.php

So this was 0.1 gr under max. Therefore, it would appear that something besides the load itself caused the problem:

-Bullet seated too deeply
-Too weak or split brass
-Lead buildup in barrel
-Firing out of battery

Least he's ok; that's good. .40 S&W and Glock makes for not much wiggle room at the edge of pressure limits - reloading must be done extremely carefully with that combo, *especially* with heavy bullets like 180 and 200 gr.

 

[HSMITH]

deadmarsh, I certainly appreciate your experience and value your opinion, but I cannot figure out how a ruptured or split case would blow the gun up. Any of us that have been shooting long have split cases with no harm at all to the gun, a rupture over the feedramp would just vent pressure down and possibly blow the extractor and magazine out but nothing more. As far as I can figure out any type of case failure will only vent pressure, not exacerbate it.

Do you know of a way that a ruptured case can split a barrel?

There was a local area police department that lost several G21's that looked just like your picture. Ammo used was commercially reloaded ball. I have been told that the problem was insufficiently heat treated barrels but no one I have been able to find from the agency owning them, the store that sold them, or Glock will comment on it.

I do know that they blew several up in a period of just a few weeks after recieving the guns, and wholesale changed them out with 40's within another couple of weeks. The store that sold them both batches said the 40's have been problem free so far.

 

[10 MickeyMouse]

Name a gun that won't KB if fired out of battery.

BHP. Specifically, one in .40 S&W firing handloaded 165 gr. Gold Sabres. The Black Pearl grip panels cracked and extractor went flying, but the gun was fine.

Double charges are no joke, but the gun should be able to digest ONE. Proof loads are way overpressure for a reason.

I'm one of those people that likes to push the limits, and many other handloaders have shaken their heads when I tell of some loads I've tested. But my all steel S&W and Tanfoglio autos have taken the punishment in stride.

If my experience in the automotive feild has proven anything, it is this: Steel parts will show signs of pending failure for some time, where polymers simply fail. Certainly steel can fail abruptly, but this happens at a much higher threshold than with polymer.

As for the arguement that a full-on KB in a steel gun is more devastating than a polymer one. The polymer chunks will be less dangerous at distance because the lighter material slows down faster, but when your hand is wrapped around it, it doesn't much matter. Firecrackers are made of paper, and they've claimed many fingers.

 

[JohnKSa]

Hodgdon says 3.5 is max load for 180 grains:

NOT!

Hodgdon says that 3.5 is max load for 180gr JACKETED bullet. Rainier (the bullets he was using) has a caution on their website that says powder charges should be reduced by 10% when using loading data for jacketed bullets with their plated bullets. That means that his load was actually 8% over max.

AND, if you look at the top of the Hodgdon page, it has a caution that those loads are only for pistols with supported chambers--"code" for "don't use these loads in Glocks.

So he's using a load that is over what the bullet manufacturer recommends in a gun that the powder manufacturer says that the load data isn't suitable for.

 

[Tim R]

The damage described with the 22 is simular to the damage to my Chief's 35 when he fired off a double charge of 231. His daughter was helping him reload and told him about charging twice on some. He thought he got them all picked out but I guess he did not.

Lets not forget our beloved 1911 has an unsupported chamber. I'm not afraid to reload for either 45 ACP or .40. Granted, there is a huge difference in operating pressures, but a double charge will bend a 1911 as well.

Edward, you must not have much luck. I would have to point my 1911 straight up in the air in order to get the firing pin to hit the primer. If I point it down a .40 just drops out the end of the barrel.

 

[HSMITH]

Tim, my buddy has a Kimber 45 with enough extractor tension to fire a 40, kind of a PUFT sound, gas venting everywhere and the gun is FILTHY in one shot, the bullet even hit the target!! The case looked pretty extreme, but all in all it was really pretty tame. His face got pretty red, but that was the only casualty from the mishap. My Para 45 won't hold a 40, but the Commander 45 I tried it in will. My 40cal 1911 type will hold a 9mm too. I don't think it is all that common but I don't think it is all that rare either.

I have not shot sub-caliber rounds intentionally in my guns, but if it happened it wouldn't be the end of the world.

 

[Edward429451]

kind of a PUFT sound, gas venting everywhere and the gun is FILTHY in one shot, the bullet even hit the target!! The case looked pretty extreme, but all in all it was really pretty tame.

That is exactly how a 40 acted in my Colt 45. I still have the case. Split 3 times lengthwise and left it in the chamber. I easily extracted the swollen case with my fingernail.

(appreciate the previous clarification Hsmith.)

 

[deadmarsh]

deadmarsh, I certainly appreciate your experience and value your opinion, but I cannot figure out how a ruptured or split case would blow the gun up. Any of us that have been shooting long have split cases with no harm at all to the gun, a rupture over the feedramp would just vent pressure down and possibly blow the extractor and magazine out but nothing more. As far as I can figure out any type of case failure will only vent pressure, not exacerbate it.

Do you know of a way that a ruptured case can split a barrel?

I'm no expert at all -- so I'd say no. I just shot this picture during training. Glock took care of all the pistols, so the end result for the LEO's was acceptable. I. like you, would sure like to find out what's happening here with the factory ammo. But with all the Glocks in use, I think it's a minor issue really, mathematically at least...

 

[glock223327]

My Kb incident was with clays & a 170 gr cast bullet ,but it was in a baretta 96 . It was the last round in the magazine .It took me a long time to figure it out. If you use clays powder it would be very hard to double charge it & seat a bullet as clays uses a lot of case space. At the time mine happened i was not crimping my reloads. Being the last round in the magazine i leaned toward bullet setback .Now i crimp all of my 40 cal. reloads to be on the safe side